Solar Panel Guide Discussion

Oscargrouch

Sirlaughalot wrote: »

Hi Cardew,

To be honest that might not be a bad idea a convenient place where i can direct some of the salesman to take there head to!

But seriously now it looks like i`ve done all the research for the system myself now with thanks to many of the posters on this site.

Tempted to go direct to the wholesalers for a suitable system and get a few MCS approved roofers and a MCS appsparky direct from the rated people site and pocket the difference myself.!

Doomed to failure I suspect; may change my username to 'Youravinalarrrf'........

Martyn1981

Sirlaughalot wrote: »

Hi raMt,

Heads beginning to overheat now and it`s starting to affect me spellin!

Just had a very interesting call with a MCS PR rep. He informed me that at present there is no guidance from MCS to their members regarding anologue meters but pointed out that they are in discussions with the main energy providers about sorting this MAJOR problem out but he also mentioned that they were reluctant to provide MCS installers with guidance that could discourage possible new customers away from renewable energy even with the fore mentioned problem(quite amazed by that!).

Regards the soil pipe no fixed items should be permanently removed from the roof so removal of the soil pipe as he explained would be against the MCS code.

SL

Hiya SL. First things first, not having a go, as I'm the worst when it comes to over-analysing, and I like to know all the ins and outs ...... but ....... I'm not really sure what is going on here.

Meters - is there really a problem? Install the PV, if the meter goes backward then tell the leccy company. If it doesn't go backwards, don't tell em. It'll all get sorted.

Should MCS take a stance, well, it's not there meters, and nobody has a problem, the meters just get changed (quickly or slowly). You said you were "quite amazed at that", that the installers might not want to mention as it may put people off. But look at the situation here, having become aware, you are seriously 'put off' over something that is, dare I say, trivial and easily rectified, if it exists at all.

Vent pipe - "no fixed items should be permanently removed from the roof", obviously I didn't hear the actual conversation, only read your comments, but does this need a little context.

Situation 1. Don't mess things up, leave it as you find it.

Situation 2. For the system to operate correctly, and to get best performance, make any proper changes as approved by householder, such as removing old unused aerials, strengthen roof structure, fix broken slates, re-sit loose ridge tiles etc.

In the case of Sit 2, shortening a vent pipe to prevent shade, or even to allow a panel to sit over it, may be perfectly correct, as long as it doesn't contravene buildings regs (I think must be 900mm above nearest window, or something like that). If that's not an option, then as mentioned previously, chop it short into the roof and add an AAV, and get the roofers to tidy up the roof whilst they are there.

Moving on, you've mentioned buying kits and arranging install. Be very careful, you will probably pay 20% VAT, rather than 5%.

FIT rates, I suspect you are right, current uncertainty, and on-going trade war, may well mean that the quarterly degression levels aren't hit (but don't quote me on that). But don't forget that an automatic degression (like the 1/7/13) kicks in each 9 months.

China - what a mess, but things could happen very soon (or possibly not):

http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details/beitrag/agreement-expected-this-week-in-eu-china-trade-dispute_100012138/#axzz2ZqcNtdss

but that might not reduce prices, just prevent further increases:

http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details/beitrag/chinese-module-prices-on-the-rise_100012137/#axzz2ZqcNtdss

So, if you're not happy, go with your gut, but please don't get too distracted by meters and soil pipes, and MCS's role, or non-role. You'll drive yourself nuts.

nytraM.

zeupater

Sirlaughalot wrote: »

... Tempted to go direct to the wholesalers for a suitable system and get a few MCS approved roofers and a MCS app sparky direct from the rated people site and pocket the difference myself.!

Okay then, that's interesting, so let's look at the cost element ... you'll pay the wholesaler a non-discounted price, then pay 15% extra VAT for the privilege .... you'll not have an account with the scaffold suppliers and therefore pay consumer rates (& 15% extra VAT) ... there's no such thing as an MCS approved roofer, but you'll still be paying consumer prices (& 15% extra VAT) for a roofer anyway ... a suitably qualified electrician could certainly install for you but would likely charge by the hour at consumer rates and not be experienced in installing inverters whilst having no incentive to work quickly (& 15% extra VAT) ... then you'll need to have an MCS registered installer sign the work off, reducing his(/her) own installation income stream whilst taking on the reputational risk associated with all other trades/tradesmen and their work quality, so even if you can find anyone willing to do it this won't come cheap, and don't forget to add 15% extra VAT.

Now let's look at the risk element .... If you're not an experienced project manager there are many things which can be missed which will effect the scheduling and cost of trades on site, such as missing roofhooks, bolts, cable, connectors, mounting boards, spare tiles etc .... you will be taking the risk of hourly labour overruns whilst solutions are sought ... someone will need to survey & certify the loading calculations for the roof, therefore having no main contractor you will likely need to pay a structural engineer and/or your local building inspector to run the calculations and sign the work off ... you will also take on board all risk and installation warranty issues - if there's an issue with the installation who is responsible - you, the manufacturer, the roofing company who installed the panels, the electrical sub-contractor or the MCS registered installer who signed it off ... remember, you've specified the materials and work which is required ... MCS certification has requirements for labelling which your certifier may not want to use their own labels on because it's not their own system - these labels are very specialised and are likely quite expensive .... Your home insurance may automatically include cover for the pv system or it could need specific mention on the policy - whichever, it will almost certainly be based on being appropriately installed by a certified installer, therefore your proposal raises the possibility of future issues in a claim condition ....

For anyone who is even partially risk-averse, simply considering the very quickly listed (& no-way comprehensive) points above would steer the project straight into the bin .....

So exactly what is the savings value to be pocketed projected to be ? ...

HTH
Z

agentk

sl

I can see were youre coming from. I costed mine out estimated the installer was charging 2k + for a day and a bits work 1st install .sticks in the throat as i was earning nmw. and then i bought another system. stung twice:eek: a different company but just as costly.but all of the above z post

both companys have ceased trading though ...***T

John_Pierpoint

zeupater wrote: »

Okay then, that's interesting, so let's look at the cost element ... you'll pay the wholesaler a non-discounted price, then pay 15% extra VAT for the privilege .... you'll not have an account with the scaffold suppliers and therefore pay consumer rates (& 15% extra VAT) ... there's no such thing as an MCS approved roofer, but you'll still be paying consumer prices (& 15% extra VAT) for a roofer anyway ... a suitably qualified electrician could certainly install for you but would likely charge by the hour at consumer rates and not be experienced in installing inverters whilst having no incentive to work quickly (& 15% extra VAT) ... then you'll need to have an MCS registered installer sign the work off, reducing his(/her) own installation income stream whilst taking on the reputational risk associated with all other trades/tradesmen and their work quality, so even if you can find anyone willing to do it this won't come cheap, and don't forget to add 15% extra VAT.

Now let's look at the risk element .... If you're not an experienced project manager there are many things which can be missed which will effect the scheduling and cost of trades on site, such as missing roofhooks, bolts, cable, connectors, mounting boards, spare tiles etc .... you will be taking the risk of hourly labour overruns whilst solutions are sought ... someone will need to survey & certify the loading calculations for the roof, therefore having no main contractor you will likely need to pay a structural engineer and/or your local building inspector to run the calculations and sign the work off ... you will also take on board all risk and installation warranty issues - if there's an issue with the installation who is responsible - you, the manufacturer, the roofing company who installed the panels, the electrical sub-contractor or the MCS registered installer who signed it off ... remember, you've specified the materials and work which is required ... MCS certification has requirements for labelling which your certifier may not want to use their own labels on because it's not their own system - these labels are very specialised and are likely quite expensive .... Your home insurance may automatically include cover for the pv system or it could need specific mention on the policy - whichever, it will almost certainly be based on being appropriately installed by a certified installer, therefore your proposal raises the possibility of future issues in a claim condition ....

For anyone who is even partially risk-averse, simply considering the very quickly listed (& no-way comprehensive) points above would steer the project straight into the bin .....

So exactly what is the savings value to be pocketed projected to be ? ...

HTH
Z

I just wonder if any installation company manages to get all these points covered correctly.

Sirlaughalot

zeupater wrote: »

Okay then, that's interesting, so let's look at the cost element ... you'll pay the wholesaler a non-discounted price, then pay 15% extra VAT for the privilege .... you'll not have an account with the scaffold suppliers and therefore pay consumer rates (& 15% extra VAT) ... there's no such thing as an MCS approved roofer, but you'll still be paying consumer prices (& 15% extra VAT) for a roofer anyway ... a suitably qualified electrician could certainly install for you but would likely charge by the hour at consumer rates and not be experienced in installing inverters whilst having no incentive to work quickly (& 15% extra VAT) ... then you'll need to have an MCS registered installer sign the work off, reducing his(/her) own installation income stream whilst taking on the reputational risk associated with all other trades/tradesmen and their work quality, so even if you can find anyone willing to do it this won't come cheap, and don't forget to add 15% extra VAT.

Now let's look at the risk element .... If you're not an experienced project manager there are many things which can be missed which will effect the scheduling and cost of trades on site, such as missing roofhooks, bolts, cable, connectors, mounting boards, spare tiles etc .... you will be taking the risk of hourly labour overruns whilst solutions are sought ... someone will need to survey & certify the loading calculations for the roof, therefore having no main contractor you will likely need to pay a structural engineer and/or your local building inspector to run the calculations and sign the work off ... you will also take on board all risk and installation warranty issues - if there's an issue with the installation who is responsible - you, the manufacturer, the roofing company who installed the panels, the electrical sub-contractor or the MCS registered installer who signed it off ... remember, you've specified the materials and work which is required ... MCS certification has requirements for labelling which your certifier may not want to use their own labels on because it's not their own system - these labels are very specialised and are likely quite expensive .... Your home insurance may automatically include cover for the pv system or it could need specific mention on the policy - whichever, it will almost certainly be based on being appropriately installed by a certified installer, therefore your proposal raises the possibility of future issues in a claim condition ....

For anyone who is even partially risk-averse, simply considering the very quickly listed (& no-way comprehensive) points above would steer the project straight into the bin .....

So exactly what is the savings value to be pocketed projected to be ? ...

HTH
Z

Hi Z,

Some very good points you make there but i`m going to dismiss the extra cost of VAT outright as the 15% difference is small fry compared to the labour/profit margin charged by the installation company. These costs as someone has already said can make up as much as 50% of the total cost. If that`s correct my best quote has been £6000 so that means i may have £3000 to play with for an installation which takes a day at most(using 3 bods!

If i can save even a third of that and what with the meter forecast to run backwards then the issue of not be able to change over energy suppliers becomes irrelevant.

While i have no experience in the building game whatsoever i do have an ace up my sleeve in as much that a very good friend (Sean)is a contracts manager for a rather large company called MITIE!

In previous conversations he has told me about some of the new build projects including schools and local government buildings he has been responsible for some projects costing millions of pounds. Don`t think a 1 day solar installation will be above his station do you?

So my next stage is to speak with him to see if he will agree to manage the install/regulation side of things while i go about getting the bits and labour.(My local sparky who does our work has installed these panels before on the wiring side i know of that in our conversations but whether he is MCS approved i`m not sure).

Next stage is to find the wholesale cost of the PV system.

Thanks

SL

Sirlaughalot

Hi Z,

Another two area`s i would like to take issue with is the labour over run rate and quality issues. In the last 2 years we have had our garage converted to a living room and all our old and tired windows doors replaced with top quality PVC equivalents carried by craftsman supplied by the Rated People website.

All work has been completed on time and to budget so your labour over shoot is way off the mark i can`t speak highly enough of the quality of there work and i`ve left comments on the Rated People website to reflect this. It`s really not in their interest to drag the work out when they are working for a fixed job price!

SL

Martyn1981

Sirlaughalot wrote: »

Hi Z,

Some very good points you make there but i`m going to dismiss the extra cost of VAT outright as the 15% difference is small fry compared to the labour/profit margin charged by the installation company. These costs as someone has already said can make up as much as 50% of the total cost. If that`s correct my best quote has been £6000 so that means i may have £3000 to play with for an installation which takes a day at most(using 3 bods!

Next stage is to find the wholesale cost of the PV system.

Thanks

SL

Morning SL. Firstly can I just have a little grumble about something. It does annoy me when people have a go about how much certain trades 'charge'.

£250 or so, for a days work who do they think they are, after all it's only labour. Well, it's only labour if you ignore their business overheads, the van they turn up in, the van load of tools they own, and all the certification costs they have. Sorry, rant over.

So back to your DIY system. Are you content that the 50% figure you gave is correct. If so, have a go at pricing things up.

This site seems pretty good (no personal affiliation):

http://www.swithenbanks.co.uk/shop.php?action=index

So, you'll need panels, perhaps:

YingLi 250 mono's @ £160 each
Canadian Solar 250's @ £170 each
SunPower 327's @ £387 each

Plus VAT, that's £3,072 (16 YL's) to £5,573 (12 SP's).

Plus an inverter, popular quality would be a SMA SB3600TL for £905, or an economy Samil SR 3.68 for £584 (don't forget the VAT).

The site also offers panel and inverter packages, perhaps 16 Hyundai's and a Samil for £3,158 + VAT.

Roof fixings, connectors, cables, TGM, isolators, warning sticker kits etc etc, wild guess, perhaps £500.

Scaffolding, approx £500 (£400 to £600).

So looks like you'll be in for around £4,800.

Next you'll need 2 sparkies to do the AC side and supply all their tools and knowledge.

Plus 2 roofers to do the DC side, and supply all their tools and knowledge.

You'll need the roofers to warranty their work, don't know what they'll charge for that.

You'll need the sparkies to warranty their work, again, no idea on costs, plus I think they get charged for the certification forms you'll need for commissioning.

Next you'll need someone to do the MCS side, I've heard the paperwork takes half a day now, plus the certification costs.

Not sure how the insurance (for any damage to neighbouring properties or PLI) works, but I assume all of these subcontractors will expect you to pay for that.

Don't forget to arrange an EPC too (£50?)

Best of luck.

Mart.

Sirlaughalot

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Morning SL. Firstly can I just have a little grumble about something. It does annoy me when people have a go about how much certain trades 'charge'.

£250 or so, for a days work who do they think they are, after all it's only labour. Well, it's only labour if you ignore their business overheads, the van they turn up in, the van load of tools they own, and all the certification costs they have. Sorry, rant over.

So back to your DIY system. Are you content that the 50% figure you gave is correct. If so, have a go at pricing things up.

This site seems pretty good (no personal affiliation):

http://www.swithenbanks.co.uk/shop.php?action=index

So, you'll need panels, perhaps:

YingLi 250 mono's @ £160 each
Canadian Solar 250's @ £170 each
SunPower 327's @ £387 each

Plus VAT, that's £3,072 (16 YL's) to £5,573 (12 SP's).

Plus an inverter, popular quality would be a SMA SB3600TL for £905, or an economy Samil SR 3.68 for £584 (don't forget the VAT).

The site also offers panel and inverter packages, perhaps 16 Hyundai's and a Samil for £3,158 + VAT.

Roof fixings, connectors, cables, TGM, isolators, warning sticker kits etc etc, wild guess, perhaps £500.

Scaffolding, approx £500 (£400 to £600).

So looks like you'll be in for around £4,800.

Next you'll need 2 sparkies to do the AC side and supply all their tools and knowledge.

Plus 2 roofers to do the DC side, and supply all their tools and knowledge.

You'll need the roofers to warranty their work, don't know what they'll charge for that.

You'll need the sparkies to warranty their work, again, no idea on costs, plus I think they get charged for the certification forms you'll need for commissioning.

Next you'll need someone to do the MCS side, I've heard the paperwork takes half a day now, plus the certification costs.

Not sure how the insurance (for any damage to neighbouring properties or PLI) works, but I assume all of these subcontractors will expect you to pay for that.

Don't forget to arrange an EPC too (£50?)

Best of luck.

Mart.

Thanks Mart,

Yes i agree regards labour rates here in the West Midlands reputable tradesman from the rated people website are working at a day rate figure of around £100/£150.

Your wholesale prices are a fantastic reference point to start from thanks if having done the figures i decide to go down a self managed PV solar installation route i will start a new thread!

I`m looking at a 12 panel uniform system now the roof size and soil pipe problems have been addressed.

SL

Martyn1981

Sirlaughalot wrote: »

Thanks Mart,

Your wholesale prices are a fantastic reference point to start from thanks if having done the figures i decide to go down a self managed PV solar installation route i will start a new thread!

SL

Hiya, just to prevent any confusion, those were retail prices, not wholesale/trade prices. Might be wrong of me, but I assumed you wouldn't have access to wholesale prices(?)

I've no idea what the difference between prices might be. Some time back I was sent (out of the blue) some large scale pricings from Europe once, when a certain member kept claiming that large scale PV benefited from large scale economies of scale. The difference between a pallet of panels (approx a domestic install) and a shipping container load of panels (approx a large commercial install) was 5%.

Another good site for prices is Navitron:

http://www.navitron.org.uk/

prices are similar to Swithenbanks, but they also do 'all in' MCS approved kits, here's a 3.99kWp one for £6.6k:

http://www.navitron.org.uk/product_detail.php?proID=478&catID=125

plus labour, certification, warranties, MCS paperwork, scaffolding, insurance, EPC.

Are you sure this is less scary?

Mart.