Solar Panel Guide Discussion

Sirlaughalot

Martyn1981 wrote: »

Hiya, just to prevent any confusion, those were retail prices, not wholesale/trade prices. Might be wrong of me, but I assumed you wouldn't have access to wholesale prices(?)

I've no idea what the difference between prices might be. Some time back I was sent (out of the blue) some large scale pricings from Europe once, when a certain member kept claiming that large scale PV benefited from large scale economies of scale. The difference between a pallet of panels (approx a domestic install) and a shipping container load of panels (approx a large commercial install) was 5%.

Another good site for prices is Navitron:

http://www.navitron.org.uk/

prices are similar to Swithenbanks, but they also do 'all in' MCS approved kits, here's a 3.99kWp one for £6.6k:

http://www.navitron.org.uk/product_detail.php?proID=478&catID=125

plus labour, certification, warranties, MCS paperwork, scaffolding, insurance, EPC.

Are you sure this is less scary?

Mart.

Thanks Mart,

Nothing scares me really apart from the fact of getting ripped off but i`m sure with adequate research and posters life yourself and my mate SEAN i`m confident i will achieve the right result in the end.

Having had a nights sleep the metering going backwards issue won`t be a problem for me, as i will hit the energy supplier head on. If there is a billing issue i will explain that i have cut my eleccy use by 50% (as with most of their own pv propaganda) and demand my bill reflects it.

SL

Sirlaughalot

Ok now on to the issue of the cost of the system itself.
The most completive price i was quoted was £5850 for a Perlight 15 panel system with a Fronius 4.0 TL Inverter. Comes with a i boost solar switch and a hand held display unit. For ease of comparison i will quote for the same spec to keep things simple

As my eleccy meter will run backwards till it is replaced any energy saving devices are irrelevant until the switch has been made so i wont include them(immersun and the like) in my pricing. That`s another issue the salesmen have known the meter will run backwards so why suggest using an immersun or equivalent device?

Thanks

SL

EricMears

Sirlaughalot wrote: »

If there is a billing issue i will explain that i have cut my eleccy use by 50% (as with most of their own pv propaganda) and demand my bill reflects it.

SL

I'd wait and see what they estimate - then propose a much lower usage.

The "50%" to which you refer is probably the deemed export figure - i.e. they (whoever they are) assume that you will use 50% of everything you generate so only need to pay you for the other 50%. Depending on time of year, (last year's usage) - (50% of generation) might well get you an even lower bill than the half of (last year's usage) you suggest.

But you can probably argue a convincing case that you've used no electricity at all during daylight hours and have managed to run all the appliances (except a bit of lighting of course) that you might have run after dark with the free daytime power.

As WestonDave said yesterday, your supplier will get so bogged down with the calculations that they're likely to give up any attempt to charge you

Sirlaughalot

EricMears wrote: »

I'd wait and see what they estimate - then propose a much lower usage.

The "50%" to which you refer is probably the deemed export figure - i.e. they (whoever they are) assume that you will use 50% of everything you generate so only need to pay you for the other 50%. Depending on time of year, (last year's usage) - (50% of generation) might well get you an even lower bill than the half of (last year's usage) you suggest.

But you can probably argue a convincing case that you've used no electricity at all during daylight hours and have managed to run all the appliances (except a bit of lighting of course) that you might have run after dark with the free daytime power.

As WestonDave said yesterday, your supplier will get so bogged down with the calculations that they're likely to give up any attempt to charge you

Thanks Eric,

I know what our energy usage was last year and since then we have double glazed replaced a washing machine and dryer for a Bosch energy efficient washer/dryer as well as replacing all our lighting for energy saving ones so i would expect a significant eleccy saving anyway on last years usage. Say 15% ish

SL

zeupater

Sirlaughalot wrote: »

Ok now on to the issue of the cost of the system itself.
The most completive price i was quoted was £5850 for a Perlight 15 panel system with a Fronius 4.0 TL Inverter. Comes with a i boost solar switch and a hand held display unit. For ease of comparison i will quote for the same spec to keep things simple

As my eleccy meter will run backwards till it is replaced any energy saving devices are irrelevant until the switch has been made so i wont include them in my pricing.

Thanks

SL

Hi

First place to start is finding an MCS certified installer who would be willing to place the accreditation/certification at risk, which cost his/her own company £tens-of-thousands to achieve ... if you can't find one you'll be wasting your time researching anything else ....

In a previous post you stated .... "i`m going to dismiss the extra cost of VAT outright as the 15% difference is small fry compared to the labour/profit margin charged by the installation company. These costs as someone has already said can make up as much as 50% of the total cost. If that`s correct my best quote has been £6000 so that means i may have £3000 to play with for an installation which takes a day at most(using 3 bods! " ... I really think that you are having a little trouble with the figures here which need a little reconsideration. Simply using your figures contained in the statement, the 15% extra VAT on goods & services will represent up to 30% of the £3000 installation cost which you believe you have "to play with", therefore taking almost £1k from your budget, leaving just over £2000 "to play with " ...

So what can you do with £2k ? .... scaffold will likely cost £500 (leaving £1.5k), your assumption of labour costing £100-£150/manday would cost £400-£600, so let's take the average & say £500 (leaving £1k) ... A pretty basic on-roof mounting system will likely cost another £500 (leaving £500) ... allow for EPC, structural engineering report, electrical certification, building control, MCS registration costs etc, must be at least £250 (leaving £250) ....... now, you are pretty close to the £6k you mention above, and more importantly within £100 of the £5850 quote you have for the Perlite system you mention in post#2254 ...

For that £100 you expect an MCS registered company to work on DNO and MCS registration for you, sign off work done by other sub-contractors and put his business reputation at risk ? ..... then there's your mate "Sean" .... if he's not already clued-up with pv installations, he'll be doing at least a weeks work for you helping to select the sub-contractors which he's happy to work with - bet that would cost a bit more than a 'few pints' down the pub or a the offer of 'romantic meal for two' ....

Just a few years ago, when little competition existed in the pv industry and systems cost upwards of £18k to £20k there was a golden age for installers to maintain massive margins & effectively 'print money' even more than standard tradesmen, but those times have passed and industry margins are now comparable to, or below, those expected by standard electrical contractors .... If you wanted to start this discussion and receive any support you should have done it at least two or three years ago as that's when we were having exactly the same thoughts, but you really must accept that there is little benefit, and considerable risk, in actually doing what you propose ...

HTH
Z

Sirlaughalot

Hi Z,

Don`t know where you are getting your cost figures from but £tens-of-thousands to achieve MCS accreditation really! Try these guys they have quoted a figure of just over £1000 all in that includes the MCS accreditation assessment with 100% success rate (how bad is that every company passes no wonder the industry has such a bad name!).

http://www.mcsaccredited.com/

By the way roofers do need a MCS accreditation qualification regarding your earlier post.

Please Z if you wish to be taken seriously it would be appreciated by other readers of this forum and myself if you would avoid picking random cost figures out of the sky to make your point.

Thanks

SL

Martyn1981

Sirlaughalot wrote: »

Hi Z,

Don`t know where you are getting your cost figures from but £tens-of-thousands to achieve MCS accreditation really! Try these guys they have quoted a figure of just over £1000 all in that includes the MCS accreditation assessment with 100% success rate (how bad is that every company passes no wonder the industry has such a bad name!).

Thanks

SL

Hiya SL. I think this may be a 'lost in translation' thing. Zeup mentioned a company, and some of these renewables install companies that were around before FITs and intend to be around throughout and after, have spent thousands, as it's not just the MCS bit, but also training staff, and like all things in life, doing loads of jobs to learn all the problems and surprises. This is another reason why costs fell (other than PV prices) as staff became trained and experienced.

So they do have many, many thousands invested in MCS. However, on accreditation, I take your point. I think Navitron offer a 2 day course for sparkies to gain MCS accreditation. I've heard this, as some high quality sparks have opted to do this, so that they can DIY their own installs, possibly with the help of a roofer mate. I can't remember the cost, but I think it's 'only' a few hundred.

[Edit - Also, I'd be careful challenging Zeup's numbers. His cost analysis and project assessment 'stuff' is pretty formidable. He's corrected me numerous times, whilst I've only 'caught him out' ........ umm ....... well ..... I think I've caught him out, possibly, probably somewhere? M.]

Mart.

Sirlaughalot

Seem to be having problems posting at the moment so hope you can see this as i post it.

Here`s a kit for comparison purposes costs £3650 all in so i assume that means vat as well!

*Carries a ten year warranty. Full technical specification available on request

Kit Components



1 x Power One PVI-3.6 OUTDOOR Inverter

16 x Perlight Solar 250, Mono, Alu frame, black back

2 x DC Isolator

2 x AC Isolator

50m x Solar PV Cable 4mm

1 x Elster A100c Generation Meter

1 x Set of Solar PV Warning Labels

2 x Multi Contact/MC4 Connectors (Male and Female)

28 x Standard Roof Hooks (based on 1200m spacings)

8 x Black 46mm End Clamps

28 x Black 46mm Module Clamps

8 x 4.2m Anodised Aluminium Mounting Rail

6 x Rail Splice Pair



Railing systems conform to all MCS2012 Standard, and has TUV and RAL certification and is produced in an ISO 9001 approved factory.



Compliance

Perlight Solar PV modules comply with: UEC61730 and ISO09001 and ISO14000 certified factory



Quality

The electrical, optical and mechanical components of the panels are each tested to specific relevant standards



Warranties

Twenty five year warranty on power output. Ten year manufacturing guarantee.

Ten year warranty on mounting system.

Martyn1981

Sirlaughalot wrote: »

Seem to be having problems posting at the moment so hope you can see this as i post it.

Here`s a kit for comparison purposes costs £3650 all in so i assume that means vat as well!

"Price: (Ex VAT) £3,650.00"

Mart.

[Edit: PS, be careful, that site's FIT info is 3 years out of date. Doesn't mean anything else is wrong, but does suggest that they don't care about updating their customer advice. This always scares me. M.]

Sirlaughalot

Just gave the company a call and been told the price has come down another £200:) However vat at 20% needs to be added on :mad:

So that`s £4140 against £5850

That`s £1710 to play with. A good starting point so i will wait for advice from my friend Sean the contracts manager from Mitie before i go any further.