Public sector wellcome to the real world

jackyann

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Er nope, a nurse could manage it over their career - jackyann will confirm. Mind you, I am sure they will have been in charge of the health of a damned sight more than 100 people by the time a nurse retires
Are you saying that's cheap to run? Cheaper than RPI sure, but index-linked anything ain't cheap.Yep, the devil sure is in the detail :rotfl:
If you are public sector then perhaps it might surprise you very nicely as things stood last time you got a statement

This is moving too fast for me! But to clarify my position:
I do not know what my "pot" is worth, other than the calculations given on this board.
Began at 18, back in the days when we were paid to train. Salary: £400 p.a.
I ticked the "pension" box and though no more about it. at that point, nurses, midwives, health visitors & "mental health officers" had a retiring age of 55.
Qualified at 21, salary: £1004 p.a.
Following further training & experience I reached the equivalent of today's Grade 6 at age 25 (quite young).
In 1975 I was paid about £3,000 p.a. (remember b/c of the mortgage!)
I did a lot more training (usually in my own time & at my own expense) got a lot more experience, worked lots of interesting places but remained at the same grade.
As some-one else said, my pension was stopped with my taxes & NI.
At age 58 my salary was approx. £32k.
I was beginning to slow down and despite my experience, began to get feelings of anxiety about work that I couldn't handle as well as I had before. I had retained the right to retire at 55 (which was stopped to newcomers in 1995)
I had paid 40 years and was entitled to 40/80ths of my salary + a lump sum.

Many posts ago I said that I don't know how fair or not that is.
It seems unfair that some people have real anxiety about their pensions and I don't.
Many people have told me over the years that I have been underpaid - they don't tell me that now!
I do not know how I would have handled my feelings about no longer being fit to work if I had to go on to 66, as my younger colleagues will have to.
I presented this as a "typical" scenario - neither the "average" public sector £4-5k, nor the huge amounts some people seem to think. As nurses are the largest occupational group in the NHS and often stay "front-line" rather than go into management, I must be fairly typical.

I take no sides in this, and don't like the tone of some of the posts. I do know that a civilised society relies on a strong public sector

toshy

jackyann wrote: »

This is moving too fast for me! But to clarify my position:
I do not know what my "pot" is worth, other than the calculations given on this board.
Began at 18, back in the days when we were paid to train. Salary: £400 p.a.
I ticked the "pension" box and though no more about it. at that point, nurses, midwives, health visitors & "mental health officers" had a retiring age of 55.
Qualified at 21, salary: £1004 p.a.
Following further training & experience I reached the equivalent of today's Grade 6 at age 25 (quite young).
In 1975 I was paid about £3,000 p.a. (remember b/c of the mortgage!)
I did a lot more training (usually in my own time & at my own expense) got a lot more experience, worked lots of interesting places but remained at the same grade.
As some-one else said, my pension was stopped with my taxes & NI.
At age 58 my salary was approx. £32k.
I was beginning to slow down and despite my experience, began to get feelings of anxiety about work that I couldn't handle as well as I had before. I had retained the right to retire at 55 (which was stopped to newcomers in 1995)
I had paid 40 years and was entitled to 40/80ths of my salary + a lump sum.

Many posts ago I said that I don't know how fair or not that is.
It seems unfair that some people have real anxiety about their pensions and I don't.
Many people have told me over the years that I have been underpaid - they don't tell me that now!
I do not know how I would have handled my feelings about no longer being fit to work if I had to go on to 66, as my younger colleagues will have to.
I presented this as a "typical" scenario - neither the "average" public sector £4-5k, nor the huge amounts some people seem to think. As nurses are the largest occupational group in the NHS and often stay "front-line" rather than go into management, I must be fairly typical.

I take no sides in this, and don't like the tone of some of the posts. I do know that a civilised society relies on a strong public sector

jackyann, you have earned all that you now have. Don't let any-one ever try to make you feel otherwise. You are entitled to all you have earned....and probably more! Enjoy your retirement and ignore the gripes of the green-eyed monsters on here who could have done as you did, but chose not to.

2sides2everystory

toshy wrote: »

Are you expecting the public sector unions to help private sector workers who are not members?

Well there's a lot of us who are union members still. You expect us to honour your picket lines I think? We all in the private sector could use our final salary pensions reinstated now, toshy. Do you think you could raise a motion in your local branch that public sector unions might lobby the Government to litigate and give back final salary schemes to us too so you public sector peeps can sleep more easily if you keep yours? Or maybe we could skip another litigation sharade and the government could just give them to us like they do you lot? It's all a question of kept promises or not. Most of us private sector peeps haven't had a sniff of any 'pots' either - it's all been funny money, same as yours. The only difference is they started preparing us for disappointment years ago and cut us loose, and somehow the public sector were left dreaming in cloud cuckoo land.

Oh wait, there isn't enough money to pay yours and go back and bail ours out ... ah tough one. Better let those public sector peeps have it - the neanderthals don't understand it well enough to have fought for it and they don't deserve it anyway because their jobs aren't in the public interest. Funny thing is, we're still here. We are your neighbours, but you are still building these strange railings between us. Do you think you might need them ?

CFC

toshy wrote: »

If private sector employers "lose in the employment tribunal, just bully their victims into submission or even ignore the ruling of the judge at final hearing" I can only presume that they feel they can do so because the employees chose to take it and not challenge? If so then that is the employees choice. "Lay down and be trodden on"
No-one ever said life was fair and you get nothing without making an effort. But there are things which can be changed. From reading your post, my impression is that the private sector Neanderthals throw down the towel at the first obstacle they hit.
We can never hope to win everything we try to, but at least if you give it a fair crack you can at least say I did my best.
I thought that the coalition government were cracking down on immigration and giving UK nationals first chomp at the bit? If this is not the case in your area of work, what are you doing about it?

Your naivety is a savage indictment of the public sector, quite frankly. I'm starting to think that most public sector jobs should be outsourced, especially non essential support jobs like yours.

sharnad

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Er nope, a nurse could manage it over their career - jackyann will confirm. Mind you, I am sure they will have been in charge of the health of a damned sight more than 100 people by the time a nurse retires
Are you saying that's cheap to run? Cheaper than RPI sure, but index-linked anything ain't cheap.Yep, the devil sure is in the detail :rotfl:
If you are public sector then perhaps it might surprise you very nicely as things stood last time you got a statement

Im saying that the pension was worked out at a higher officers salary and that 100s of thousands wont ever reach that.

Last time I got my statment if said I would get £4000 a year when I retire after working for 40/80 which would now need another 8 years added but maybe I read it incorrectly, I will be really pleased if it is a lot higher than that but doubt it will be - I have seen another calulcator that states £7000 a year

sharnad

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Well there's a lot of us who are union members still. You expect us to honour your picket lines I think? We all in the private sector could use our final salary pensions reinstated now, toshy. Do you think you could raise a motion in your local branch that public sector unions might lobby the Government to litigate and give back final salary schemes to us too so you public sector peeps can sleep more easily if you keep yours? Or maybe we could skip another litigation sharade and the government could just give them to us like they do you lot? It's all a question of kept promises or not. Most of us private sector peeps haven't had a sniff of any 'pots' either - it's all been funny money, same as yours. The only difference is they started preparing us for disappointment years ago and cut us loose, and somehow the public sector were left dreaming in cloud cuckoo land.

Oh wait, there isn't enough money to pay yours and go back and bail ours out ... ah tough one. Better let those public sector peeps have it - the neanderthals don't understand it well enough to have fought for it and they don't deserve it anyway because their jobs aren't in the public interest. Funny thing is, we're still here. We are your neighbours, but you are still building these strange railings between us. Do you think you might need them ?

I didnt realise there were loads of private sector workers on the public sector picket lines

Moby

toshy wrote: »

Since many other factors now seem to have become drawn into this debate, let me play Devil's Advocate and ask opinions on an alternative, extreme as it may be!
Abolish the public sector, abolish state benefits, abolish income tax, NI and council tax and every-one pays only for exactly what they need.
Schools, hospitals, GP's, police, fire services, ambulances, parks, leisure services, dentists to name but a few could be run by private companies and any-one using their service would be charged according to the cost of the service needed by the user.
Residents could be responsible for lighting, sweeping and repairing the street they live on and also for disposing of their own rubbish.
The cost of repairing and building roads could be added to the cost of car tax.
etc. etc. etc.
It already happens in other countries to some degree or another.
If the public sector is such a drain on private sector workers, maybe this is an alternative option to explore?
This obviously is said largely tongue in teeth, but I'd be interested to hear views!

This post gets to the heart of the matter in my view. If some of the bitters on here had their way we'd all be selling off our grandmothers:rotfl:
Look at the present high profile issue....funding your care in old age. Look at the costs of privately run care homes....ripp off!
Privately run railways....ripp off
Privately run hospitals...£3.50 for a cup of tea... ripp off!

My own area criminal Justice:-
Privately run prisons are a total disgrace and...a ripp off

Private companies are fine in the commercial sector but introduce the profit motive into public services is a complete disaster because costs are pared down as far as possible to maximise profit for the shareholders. Staff terms and conditions of service are degraded as part of this process and services suffer greatly. This is to say nothing of the greatly increased corruption potential. Look at the recent Winterbourne View scandal. Granted....scandals can happen in bothe private and publicly run companies but the point I'm making is that the profit motive is a significant factor in driving the service and that changes everything. Look at the US....I lived there for a year....if you have a good pension plan and stable employment you are generally safe and secure, (providing you chose the right insurance company of course) but there is a huge underclass of suffering and poverty that is almost invisible. We do not want to go in that direction in my view!

2sides2everystory

sharnad wrote: »

I didnt realise there were loads of private sector workers on the public sector picket lines

You misunderstand, sharnad. When I went to school, I understood that the different trades union respected each other's picket lines i.e. would not cross one in the course of their normal working duties. Post office workers in a union used to be the obvious example (no post got through unless companies went and collected it), but bus drivers and lorry drivers are more obvious examples of picket line crossings which annoy those manning picket lines intensely.

I am not sure it is legal any more for us to join your picket lines - wouldn't that be close to 'flying pickets' which were outlawed in Thatcher's time I believe?

PS Your confusion or mere assertion about the relative size of a higher officer's pension pot compared to others may be as a result of you being someone with many years yet to retire who is on a 'lesser' variant of pension scheme compared to a 40 year nurse for example. There are so many variations out there that it is hard to tell, but for someone who is not a higher officer on £32,000 now who has 40/80ths and whose statement says they will get £16,000 a year index-linked, then it is simple maths that proves that their 'pot' must be of the order of £500,000 plus or even £666,666 as Uglymug calculated.

PPS The fact that actually, there are no 'pots' with your names on them, just a guarantee of the income you may expect in retirement makes the whole thing even more difficult to swallow for the swarth of us neanderthals for whom such guarantees have for years been poopoo-ed on a regular basis as unaffordable by government spokespersons far more than the corporates wot actually did the deed behind that political smokescreen. Now it is perhaps your turn to be smoked as I said earlier but with luck you may still get to choose some of the wood shavings they ignite for the first cooking and the paper they burn to get it all started.

Koicarp

Twosidestoeverystory. "PPS The fact that actually, there are no 'pots' with your names on them, just a guarantee of the income you may expect in retirement makes the whole thing even more difficult to swallow for the swarth of ......."

I can understand that. But what are the options other than us continuing to have no real "pot"? If they scrapped the whole thing now, every single public service pension and stop all payments into them, they would still have to pay those already retired. Where does the 30 odd Billion pounds per year come from?

toshy

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Well there's a lot of us who are union members still. You expect us to honour your picket lines I think? We all in the private sector could use our final salary pensions reinstated now, toshy. Do you think you could raise a motion in your local branch that public sector unions might lobby the Government to litigate and give back final salary schemes to us too so you public sector peeps can sleep more easily if you keep yours? Or maybe we could skip another litigation sharade and the government could just give them to us like they do you lot? It's all a question of kept promises or not. Most of us private sector peeps haven't had a sniff of any 'pots' either - it's all been funny money, same as yours. The only difference is they started preparing us for disappointment years ago and cut us loose, and somehow the public sector were left dreaming in cloud cuckoo land.

Oh wait, there isn't enough money to pay yours and go back and bail ours out ... ah tough one. Better let those public sector peeps have it - the neanderthals don't understand it well enough to have fought for it and they don't deserve it anyway because their jobs aren't in the public interest. Funny thing is, we're still here. We are your neighbours, but you are still building these strange railings between us. Do you think you might need them ?

The only railings which have been erected are the ones which you are putting up. I can only quote Darwin. Isn't it about time you neanderthals started to evolve and learned how best to survive in the 21st Century instead of going out hunting with your clubs looking to prey on others?