Public sector wellcome to the real world

toshy

2sides2everystory wrote: »

They might be toshy, but would you like to guess ? I am no burden to the state if that's what you were hoping by your snide remark to suggest

I'm not going to bother trying to guess thank-you.
It was not a snide remark but a reasonable query! Accessing personal e-mails or such like is an automatic disciplinary for us, as is using a mobile phone. It's considered a loss of productive work time.

Old_Slaphead

Koicarp wrote: »

Thanks Melancholy I found this bit interesting too:
"In 2010, some 38% of workers had a degree or equivalent qualification in the public sector, compared with 23% in the private sector.
Comparing the pay of these graduates flips the pay gap around, with public sector workers earning 5.7% less than those in the private sector".

Perhaps thats something to do with the plethora of jobs created in the public sector against the relative dearth in private industry over much of the last decade. That at a time when universities have been churning out graduates in all sorts of weird and wonderful subjects.

The private sector have obviously paid top dollar to cream of the best while many the rest are overqualified public pen pushers.

Koicarp

Perhaps you are right Old Slaphead, but it is more likely the "proffessionalisation" which has taken place (in the NHS) in the last 20 years. In Nursing a degree is now bog standard whereas it was quite unusual in the 90's, there has also been a big expansion in physiotherapy, Occupational Therapy and dietetic services in the last 10-15 years all of which are degree level entry professions.

Moby

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Much of your argument Moby is the weird vocational choice / lifetime of public service argument which I think can only stand the full test when we are referring to a limited number of actual vocations:

1. Front-line Nursing staff
2. Front-line Ambulance staff
3. Front line Teaching staff
4. Some parts of front line Social Services which by their absolute dedication do prevent Baby Peter type tragedies.

I do not include police or fire brigade, prison officers or local government workers or Border Agency staff, or HMRC staff, nor NHS admin staff nor people working for quangos, commissions like the Law Services Commission nor people working for DEFRA or FSA or MAF or whatever they call themselves this week, or the other FSA shortly to become FCA and all the rest (the vast majority)

These are just jobs which are undertaken by pure personal choice, or by happenstance, same as our private sector jobs, not by any vocational calling into service. Part of your decision was the pension, same as it was for us in sifting between private sector opportunities.

But you do your nursing, ambulance, and teaching staff colleagues a disservice by donning their caring service banner as your own.

I don't know exactly what you do personally Moby, but one of your comments about your probationers driving away from their appointments in their BMWs kind of presents a sorry picture which you choose to remain part of. Whether it was always like that, and why you personally chose a job in the probation service is purely your business.

It doesn't mean we must automatically feel sorry for you on the basis of "Yes it is not a nice situation, but its the best we've got, and someone has to do it - give him a gold plate pension". You may have got caught up in an evolved role through no fault of your own, but now you are justifying your staying in it by the perk of that gold-plate pension. I got the impression that you didn't enjoy your job but you will stay as long as the job and the pension exists? Maybe you have been in it so long that there is no real choice but to Keep Calm And Carry On?

If so, it's hard luck, but ultimately your choice.

You will notice that jackyann was not trying quite so hard to defend her nursing pension in quite the same way you are. Very few vocations are as special as nursing, but we even have to be careful who we are giving the gold-plate perks to in nursing too, don't we? I am sure jackyann knows who the shirkers are in the modern setup which she finds a bit of a strain whilst trying to maintain her high standards.

No-one doubts that policemen and firemen have to deal with some very ugly scenes whether it be attending motorcyclists or children in crashed cars with their heads knocked off or rapid response units dealing with the results of stabbings and shootings.

Maybe you have had an ugly scene or two in your role. You either dare do such a job or you don't. You weigh the risks with the rewards and a lot of youngsters entering policing and the fire service are attracted by the excitement and macho. You can't retrospectively claim it as a vocational calling to public service.

And you blame the demise of private sector pensions ful square on the assumed apathy or lethargy of private sector employees?Many of those reckless decisions you are taking about were made and upheld or blind eye turned to by public sector employees who were supposed to uphold the law.

I am not sure what your reference to generous company car schemes was to illustrate, AFAIK, there has been little advantage in the common man having a company car for at least 15 years due to the way they are taxed. Perhaps you know of such a scheme being introduced as a bribe to give up a final salary pension and more fool the private sector bods if they took it? Doesn't seem to have stopped some of the public sector workers I know having nice company cars, and I don't mean the ones with blue lights on! I don't know how they are expensed or taxed. Same as private sector I guess.

You are right about the proposed changes being political. So they were when a whole slice of your public sector colleagues working for the toothless multiple watchdogs failed to enforce any law to stop the private sector doing the same thing to us.

Now it is just a question of fairness. Unless, as I have said before, you are committed to reintroducing / reinstating private sector defined benefit schemes without delay, then without delay you should start preparing yourselves for something like we were force-fed and which your lot rather smuggly ignored at your peril as well as ours.

So 2sides2everystory is now using the royal 'we' to his posts.:rotfl:Seriously though its very arrogant of you to consider yourself able to be able to judge which jobs can be accurately described as a 'vocation' but there again I notice from your posts that words are cheap for you!

When I spoke of probationers driving away in their BMW's... I was indicating that there is a huge black economy in this country mainly accessed by individuals who are not taxed at source. Its an issue I can't do anything about....so the meaning of your comment is lost on me?

'You weigh the risks with the rewards and a lot of youngsters entering policing and the fire service are attracted by the excitement and macho. You can't retrospectively claim it as a vocational calling to public service'

Another arrogant sweeping generalisation. There may be an element of this at the start of someones career but it soon disappears i assure you

Re. my job... I supervise and assess criminals, write Court reports etc. I didn't choose to do it for 'macho' reasons. I did it because I'm a psychologist and forensics was an interesting area. I had a sense of 'vocation' about injustice and developing more accurate assessment tools to predict human behaviour especially in relation to drug, alcohol and mental health issues. Its very useful, valuable work but it doesn't get recognised by way of bonuses or salary.

'But you do your nursing, ambulance, and teaching staff colleagues a disservice by donning their caring service banner as your own'.

I was defending them for what they do and I was thanked for it so it wasn't seen in the way you describe by the people that count!

'Now it is just a question of fairness. Unless, as I have said before, you are committed to reintroducing / reinstating private sector defined benefit schemes without delay, then without delay you should start preparing yourselves for something like we were force-fed and which your lot rather smuggly ignored at your peril as well as ours'

I think you overestimate my powers...as much as I'd like to help. You have to get off your !!!!!! and take your employers to task. Join a union or if you are already in one like you...stop whingeing and act!

By the way I see the latest figures show private sector salaries increased by 2% last year... wow I can only dream of that!

ani_26

You guys from the the public and private sectors, don't realise how lucky you are. Pay increases? try pay cuts. Try the resourcefulness of the self employed and welcome to the real world. :rotfl::rotfl:

Lets not forget everyone else in the real world, too.

dunstonh

You guys from the the public and private sectors, don't realise how lucky you are. Pay increases? try pay cuts. Try the resourcefulness of the self employed and welcome to the real world.

Along with the fact that the self employed also get a lower state pension (no SERPS/S2P) which is worth around £120k in a pension fund. So, any self employed person finishing with less than £120k fund in a pension has actually gone backwards with their planning.

ani_26

dunstonh wrote: »

Along with the fact that the self employed also get a lower state pension (no SERPS/S2P) which is worth around £120k in a pension fund. So, any self employed person finishing with less than £120k fund in a pension has actually gone backwards with their planning.

I get the feeling theres generaly a public misapprehension, that the self employed are second class citizens, and the contribitions the they make only entitle them to a reduced state pension?

If this were the case, there would never be the second class citizenship of the self employed, and no one would ever take the decision to be creative and resourceful, and try to be self sufficient / self funding.

Ok, so there will be times when it goes pear shaped. We are in an economic recession, but i'm sure the self employed know and try their best within their limitations to ensure they have plans. After all, this is what they excel at.

As for the general misapprehension i've seen, that the self employed are not entitled to full state pension, maybe facts should be checked, as this may not always be the case?

jem16

ani_26 wrote: »

As for the general misapprehension i've seen, that the self employed are not entitled to full state pension, maybe facts should be checked, as this may not always be the case?

There is no misapprehension.

Self employed NI contributions only entitle them to the full BASIC state pension - i.e. the one that is around £100pw just now. They do not build up any entitlement to SERPS/S2P unless they have been employed.

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

That's not quite how I read it. The BBC article also emhasises that the lower skilled public sector workforce has been somewhat fed to the lions (outsourced). Makes you remaining public sector wallahs sound a bit like some kind of club. Per the article:

"Key to the difference in pay was the higher proportion of higher-paid jobs in the public sector, the ONS said.
Over the past 10 years, the trend for low-skilled jobs to be outsourced to the private sector has continued, pushing up the average wage among public sector workers."

but if you read the whole full article, it takes all that into account. it's a surprisingly interesting read and shows firstly how hard it is to make a comparison and secondly, how many statements made on threads like this don't necessarily reflect the facts (from both sides).

the point about low skilled workers being paid more in the public sector than the private sector, and the reverse being true for top end workers was based on breaking down the workers into groups based on their skills. the whole point was to avoid talking about averages on both sides since they aren't comparable. they have a nice illustration of it at the start of the report. it's not long to read or that difficult to follow.

i don't have a strong opinion on public or private being wrong/evil/nasty etc etc etc. but i do like facts more than conjecture. i also like figures from big groups rather than anecdotes about 'my mate'. there are always exceptions to every rule and to me, it makes sense to look at generalities not the odd outlying specifics. (so high flying 'money grabbing' bankers don't really reflect the private sector as a whole and teachers who are extremely lazy don't reflect the public sector). (EDITED TO ADD - just re-read and this sounded like i thought all teachers are lazy - that's the opposite of what i meant - the odd one will be, but on the whole they're very hard working!)

my only strong opinion is that the government has adopted a divide and conquer approach between the public and private sector that a lot of people are wholeheartedly buying into. this anger against each other seems desperately sad when the government is meant to be encouraging the 'big society' rather than the split society.

sammyjammy

jem16 wrote: »

There is no misapprehension.

Self employed NI contributions only entitle them to the full BASIC state pension - i.e. the one that is around £100pw just now. They do not build up any entitlement to SERPS/S2P unless they have been employed.

Neither do Civil servants. This is only right for both self employed and public sector as they are contracted out of SERPS and therefore pay a lower NI contirubtion.