Public sector wellcome to the real world

melancholly

cyclonebri1 wrote: »

Jesus chap/fella/girl

We are not talking about individuals at the top of their sector.
They will always be judged as just that, individuals, and paid accordingly private or public sector.

This is about the rank and file, cannon fodder, in each sector, they are "eeeek" roughly equal if you accept public sector workers have to commit murder to be fired???????????


Reforms accros the board?....... chap the private sector has been reformed by gradual neccessity, welcome to 2011. maybe?

there are massive issues over firing people in the public sector - that's a given, but that's not a reason for pension reform..... changing some pensions which are already sustainable in the long term is just plain odd.

i was also trying to illustrate how people always see the grass as greener on the other side. that's fundamentally what this arguement is about. people being whipped up into a angry frenzy based on a few half facts without the full story.

the public sector is far from perfect, but taking away the pensions isn't going to solve all the problems. it's sounding like a lot of people like the idea of it in a vindictive way. 'they have so much that's good that they shouldn't have this'. it's really really unattractive.

public sector pensions are not the reason the government can't balance the books! maybe they need reforming independently, but even if there were no public sector pensions, it wouldn't come close to cost of buying out the banks (this link has completely changed my views on the government financial changes - worth a look - i realise that plenty of people don't like facts to interfere with prejudice, but it's actually really interesting!)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/interactive/2009/sep/16/public-spending-larry-elliott

ani_26

dunstonh wrote: »

That said, the self employed typically pay less tax and NI. So, they have the scope to provide their own provision which is what most decent self employed people will do. Its really only the low earning self employed or those with poor money management that are not likely to do it.

The self employed typically pay less tax and ni than everyone else. I'm intrigued as to why there is an exception for the self employed.

How can you tell the difference between a decent self employed person, and an indecent, self employed person. What do they look like?

jem16

sammyjammy wrote: »

Neither do Civil servants. This is only right for both self employed and public sector as they are contracted out of SERPS and therefore pay a lower NI contirubtion.

It's correct for anyone with a final salary pension.

dunstonh

The self employed typically pay less tax and ni than everyone else. I'm intrigued as to why there is an exception for the self employed.

Exception of why they dont get SERPs/S2P or pay less NI/tax? The reason they dont get SERPS/S2P is they pay less NI.

Technically, self employed dont pay less tax but have access to allowances that the employed would not likely use in carrying out their job.

How can you tell the difference between a decent self employed person, and an indecent, self employed person. What do they look like?

I havent got the foggiest why I typed decent. It isnt the meaning I was looking for. Sensible would have been a better word to use.

cyclonebri1

ani_26 wrote: »

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

I'm going to die of laughter. Is this what you really think. Seriously?

I'm sorry I did say without offense but when you know as many people who are self employed builders/plumbers/design engineers etc etc, as I do, then you would realise exactly what does go on.

The cash in hand economy is the only part of the present system thats still very healthy.

So:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:if you will but I know who's laughing loudest,

ani_26

cyclonebri1 wrote: »

I'm sorry I did say without offense but when you know as many people who are self employed builders/plumbers/design engineers etc etc, as I do, then you would realise exactly what does go on.

The cash in hand economy is the only part of the present system thats still very healthy.

So:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:if you will but I know who's laughing loudest,

Ah. So you're categorising certain factions within the self employed. Its a shame this view is ? widely? perceived ? I realise you said without offense. I'm not offended. I find it amusing.


If thats the case, why are so many self employed losing their businesses, homes, everything they have?

Of course someone will come back with the answer bad planning, not thinking of the future, etc, etc, etc

Welcome to the real world. This IS the real world.

cyclonebri1

ani_26 wrote: »

Ah. So you're categorising certain factions within the self employed. Its a shame this view is ? widely? perceived ? I realise you said without offense. I'm not offended. I find it amusing.


If thats the case, why are so many self employed losing their businesses, homes, everything they have?

Of course someone will come back with the answer bad planning, not thinking of the future, etc, etc, etc

Welcome to the real world. This IS the real world.

Because even the "cribbers" of this world are finding life hard at present, 'tis the real world,

ani_26

dunstonh wrote: »

Along with the fact that the self employed also get a lower state pension (no SERPS/S2P) which is worth around £120k in a pension fund. So, any self employed person finishing with less than £120k fund in a pension has actually gone backwards with their planning.

As i understand this, even with serps, a state pension could only be worth up to whatever it currently is, up to £155, maximum, a week?

Part of this could be compensated by claiming pension tax credit, although not worth as much as serps, obviously.

I may be wrong, i hold my hands up, i'm a mere mortal trying to understand my own pension entitlements, but i've spent some time this week, trying to understand pensions.

bigjl

ILW wrote: »

Their is a difference between envying someone for purely having more than you, as opposed to being forced into paying for that person to have more than you.

I don't want to burst your bubble but I pay over £400 a month into my pension.

It is only a 1/80th scheme so not exactly big money.

I make £34.5k a yr including London Weighting and unsocial hours allowance.

But most importantly myself and the rest of the public services are also tax payers.

So this rubbish about my pension being subsidised by the private sector really doesn't hold water.

Oh and Agency Nurses make a lot more per hour than other Nurses working beside them. Same for private Ambulance staff doing A/E work, £24 an hour for a Paramedic, again better than NHS hourly rate.

You do realise that the real.reason for these attacks on public service pensions is to help.pay for the huge benefit bill that is now being paid for by all tax payers.

Above all it isn't my fault or any other public sector workers fault if you decided not to work.in the public sector.

It also wasn't my fault that the politcians ruined your pensions and allowed so many private pensions to be closed or robbed.

One of the best pensions going used to be in the print, and that was firmly private sector.

My main issue is this is all jealousy and the politicians are just trying to divert attention from the welfare bill by putting public sector against private.

I have no issue with pension schemes being changed for new entrants.

But do you really want a 68yr old Paramedic coming to help.you in your hour of need. Don't worry about subsidising them as they normally die off within 3/4 yrs of retirement. Not much after paying in for forty years.

If you paid your mortgage for 20 yrs then when you think you have nearly paid it off they increased the term and increased the payments. All for no reason!

What they are doing to some public sector workers is nothing short of breach of contract.

But from what I have read online and heard on LBC the governemnt is getting the exact reaction they wanted from people that have no idea how bad this country has sunk.

They should knock a few quid of every skivvers benefits.

My neighbour has been on the ponce for two years, getting his mortgage interest paid by the taxpayers and has more disposable income than I do.

That is the real problem, and not even considering thw pensioners from the third world that come to visit their family in the UK and end up getting a pension.

Until you have worked in the public sector you have no idea what goes on.

dunstonh

As i understand this, even with serps, a state pension could only be worth up to whatever it currently is, up to £155, maximum, a week?

There is no maximum. There are some people with Additional State Pensions and Basic state pensions worth over £10k a year (that would be over £190).

It is harder for those starting out now (or any time in the last decade) to get near those figures as the typical maximum was closer to £8000.

Part of this could be compensated by claiming pension tax credit, although not worth as much as serps, obviously.

Not a lot of fun though having to rely on the state to bring you up to around £10,000 a year. It's there for those that need it but its not something you should ideally plan for. 20-30 years on the breadline is not going to be an enjoyable retirement.

Of course, its quite possible that pension credit wont exist in a few years for those retiring after the changeover. The self employed would benefit as well from these changes.

But do you really want a 68yr old Paramedic coming to help.you in your hour of need.

Experienced and mature. Vs some teenager only just qualified. OMG I must be getting old if I think that!!!!