Public sector wellcome to the real world

toshy

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I am not sure it is legal any more for us to join your picket lines - wouldn't that be close to 'flying pickets' which were outlawed in Thatcher's time I believe?

If you were likely to behave on a picket line as you have on here I don't think you would be welcomed......that's of course IF we had picket lines.

toshy

CFC wrote: »

Your naivety is a savage indictment of the public sector, quite frankly. I'm starting to think that most public sector jobs should be outsourced, especially non essential support jobs like yours.

That comment just goes to prove how ignorant you are of the work done by many in the public sector. It also clearly shows that all you are intent to do on here is to show vindictiveness. It may also explain why you never chose to work in the public sector.

toshy

2sides2everystory wrote: »

You misunderstand, sharnad. When I went to school, I understood that the different trades union respected each other's picket lines i.e. would not cross one in the course of their normal working duties. Post office workers in a union used to be the obvious example (no post got through unless companies went and collected it), but bus drivers and lorry drivers are more obvious examples of picket line crossings which annoy those manning picket lines intensely.

I am not sure it is legal any more for us to join your picket lines - wouldn't that be close to 'flying pickets' which were outlawed in Thatcher's time I believe?

PS Your confusion or mere assertion about the relative size of a higher officer's pension pot compared to others may be as a result of you being someone with many years yet to retire who is on a 'lesser' variant of pension scheme compared to a 40 year nurse for example. There are so many variations out there that it is hard to tell, but for someone who is not a higher officer on £32,000 now who has 40/80ths and whose statement says they will get £16,000 a year index-linked, then it is simple maths that proves that their 'pot' must be of the order of £500,000 plus or even £666,666 as Uglymug calculated.

PPS The fact that actually, there are no 'pots' with your names on them, just a guarantee of the income you may expect in retirement makes the whole thing even more difficult to swallow for the swarth of us neanderthals for whom such guarantees have for years been poopoo-ed on a regular basis as unaffordable by government spokespersons far more than the corporates wot actually did the deed behind that political smokescreen. Now it is perhaps your turn to be smoked as I said earlier but with luck you may still get to choose some of the wood shavings they ignite for the first cooking and the paper they burn to get it all started.

lol! A four paragraph reply to a one sentence post! I think you may need to call in the services of the NHS for a verbal variant of immodium!

sharnad

2sides2everystory wrote: »

You misunderstand, sharnad. When I went to school, I understood that the different trades union respected each other's picket lines i.e. would not cross one in the course of their normal working duties. Post office workers in a union used to be the obvious example (no post got through unless companies went and collected it), but bus drivers and lorry drivers are more obvious examples of picket line crossings which annoy those manning picket lines intensely.

I am not sure it is legal any more for us to join your picket lines - wouldn't that be close to 'flying pickets' which were outlawed in Thatcher's time I believe?

PS Your confusion or mere assertion about the relative size of a higher officer's pension pot compared to others may be as a result of you being someone with many years yet to retire who is on a 'lesser' variant of pension scheme compared to a 40 year nurse for example. There are so many variations out there that it is hard to tell, but for someone who is not a higher officer on £32,000 now who has 40/80ths and whose statement says they will get £16,000 a year index-linked, then it is simple maths that proves that their 'pot' must be of the order of £500,000 plus or even £666,666 as Uglymug calculated.

PPS The fact that actually, there are no 'pots' with your names on them, just a guarantee of the income you may expect in retirement makes the whole thing even more difficult to swallow for the swarth of us neanderthals for whom such guarantees have for years been poopoo-ed on a regular basis as unaffordable by government spokespersons far more than the corporates wot actually did the deed behind that political smokescreen. Now it is perhaps your turn to be smoked as I said earlier but with luck you may still get to choose some of the wood shavings they ignite for the first cooking and the paper they burn to get it all started.

You failed to see the sarcasm, The fact is in a lot of places you would have to be a higher officer to make £32,000.

Sick of people thinking that everyone makes loads of money and that every one in the publice sector would not want the private sector to have decent pensions.

Everyone in the public sector knows someone, a relative, a partner a friend who has lost out with their private sector pensions. No one would wish it on them, they would want the private sector to have as good as they have without having to lower the expectations of everyone involved, just because someone has more than me I wouldnt wish that person to have less.

atush

Originally Posted by toshy
I thought that the coalition government were cracking down on immigration and giving UK nationals first chomp at the bit? If this is not the case in your area of work, what are you doing about it?

I think you will find that this is against european law. So no discrimination against Polish plumbers and the like.


The only discrimination that is currently legal under EU law is Scottish anti English discrimination where EU Uni students pay nothing, and English students are charged 9K.

Uglymug

To bring a bit of humour into this public/private discussion I've started a new thread entitled "Me dads 65 today."

roysterer

toshy wrote: »

Welcome to the real world private sector workers....it's time to get off your butts and take some action, just like we have done!
And when you do, maybe you'll finally get off our case!!

Thats big of you depriving children of their education.
What action have you got planned for July and August?????
I think I can guess the answer to that one.

I dont want you to lose your pension or your accrued benefit. Is it unreasonable for you to increase your contributions to what is still a very good pension scheme even after the proposed changes????
Many workers in the private sector never had this option when there final salary schemes ended so why are you against these increases enough to make you want to strike????

As for the carp on here by some claiming that they took the difficult decision as a 16yr-18yr old to join the Public Sector instead of the Private, I bet most could not give a toss what sector they were working in at that age!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for all this Public Servant [EMAIL="boll@cks"]boll@cks[/EMAIL] most of you are just doing a Job just like anyone else, just trying to make a living to support your families. Most of us are wage slaves no matter what sector we work in. So stop all this rubbish about sacrifices made to help mankind. Your JOB is teaching, nursing,
Policeman, Fireman, Assistant, Binman, Roadsweeper, Clerk, Probation Officer, etc.
It is a JOB you are doing to make a living nothing more nothing less.
You are doing a JOB that someone else can do when your long gone.
Your JOB is no more important than anyone elses, you will be forgotten the day after you leave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moby

roysterer wrote: »

Thats big of you depriving children of their education.
What action have you got planned for July and August?????
I think I can guess the answer to that one.

I dont want you to lose your pension or your accrued benefit. Is it unreasonable for you to increase your contributions to what is still a very good pension scheme even after the proposed changes????
Many workers in the private sector never had this option when there final salary schemes ended so why are you against these increases enough to make you want to strike????

As for the carp on here by some claiming that they took the difficult decision as a 16yr-18yr old to join the Public Sector instead of the Private, I bet most could not give a toss what sector they were working in at that age!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for all this Public Servant boll@cks most of you are just doing a Job just like anyone else, just trying to make a living to support your families. Most of us are wage slaves no matter what sector we work in. So stop all this rubbish about sacrifices made to help mankind. Your JOB is teaching, nursing,
Policeman, Fireman, Assistant, Binman, Roadsweeper, Clerk, Probation Officer, etc.
It is a JOB you are doing to make a living nothing more nothing less.
You are doing a JOB that someone else can do when your long gone.
Your JOB is no more important than anyone elses, you will be forgotten the day after you leave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

roysterer.... another simplistic generalised reply designed to goad. I've tried so hard to explain to you that one of the issues informing this discussion is that public service jobs are 'not just another job'. You can say that about some of them but not about many that you mention above. The point is we went into these jobs knowing that we were going into public service roles and I repeat...be going into a 'vocation'. The deal was job security, a decent pension, good terms and conditions of service but a relatively poor salary, no bonus and little financial incentive to go for promotion. As I said my private sector peers went into jobs with much less security but a vastly more generous 'financial package'. I was better qualified than many of them but accepted the deal as described above! They made much more 'money' than me throughout the eighties, Nineties and early nougties, (The Thatcherite dream). Much of this was financed by reckless decisions the most prominent of which was that many of the major companies took 'pension holidays' and paid out bonuses and had generous company car schemes to compensate. It was very irresponsible and completely wrong and people should be directing their energies to dealing with this.The looming problem of an ageing population and public service pension 'black hole' was belatedly being dealt with by the last Government and many of these 'overly generous pensions were being changed and I used mine the 'LGPS' as an example. It was being done by negotiation with the unions in a fair and correct civilised manner.

The new Government has come in with a completely different agenda which has taken these changes onto a completely different level and is defined not by good policy but by expediency to carry out their political agenda of privatisation and degradation of public services for political reasons. Now probably people like you agree with that anyway. However I'm just making sure that other people on here know the difference between what changes are actually needed in a practical sense and what is actually being done for political motives. Now rosterer.... I accept that the subtlety of that point may be lost on you but at least some other people on here might see what the anger is over. Remember this issue has only very recently become so contentious...while the 'pension black hole' itself has been around for years. Its politically driven by a Government who wants us at each others throats so they can drive through highly contentious policies!

afc80

Uglymug wrote: »

Sorry, I thought I’d mentioned I drove a six year old Mondeo, I haven’t got and never have had a flashy company car, I think the majority of private sector workers have never had a flashy company car. Only one of the 5 companies I’ve worked for have provided them but that was for very senior managers, not the ordinary shop floor workers. I also haven’t had a bonus for over 10 years and prior to that it was only ever in the region of a couple of hundred pounds. You really do have a perverse view of what real life is like outside your cotton wool wrapped environment of the public sector.

Congratulations on attaining your pension, you’ve certainly managed to grab most of the pie there haven’t you. A 20K pension is what most of use can only dream of in the private sector. I’m certain nobody in my current small company will be able to save the £666,666 (that's two thirds of a million pounds) they’d need to purchase a similar pension. It seems, according to you, everyone in the private sector have made the wrong decisions in life. It’s extremely disheartening to see that you think we’re all mugs. I truly hope that this view is not shared within the majority of the public sector. I’ve always had a fairly good regard for the public sector, but unfortunately, after being involved with this thread, I’ve changed my opinion, and it’s not for the good.

If proof was ever needed that the system needs reforming this must be it, from his job description the poster seems to have implied he’s a fairly small cog in the system, the size of his pension is scandalous. Surely, everyone, even other moderate members of the public sector who’ve only managed to amassed a much smaller pension must see the injustice in this.

:):)

My heart bleeds for you. diddums.

Even when this all goes through public sector pensions will still be here and will still provide for an excellent retirement.

And you will still be paying for it.

You are a bitter angry little man :rotfl::rotfl:

btw, nearly all my mates who work in the private sector receive huge bonuses.

You really should listen to Tebbitt and get on your bike and move to Aberdeen instead of wallowing in your own pity.

2sides2everystory

Moby wrote:

I've tried so hard to explain to you that one of the issues informing this discussion is that public service jobs are 'not just another job'.

Much of your argument Moby is the weird vocational choice / lifetime of public service argument which I think can only stand the full test when we are referring to a limited number of actual vocations:

1. Front-line Nursing staff
2. Front-line Ambulance staff
3. Front line Teaching staff
4. Some parts of front line Social Services which by their absolute dedication do prevent Baby Peter type tragedies.

I do not include police or fire brigade, prison officers or local government workers or Border Agency staff, or HMRC staff, nor NHS admin staff nor people working for quangos, commissions like the Law Services Commission nor people working for DEFRA or FSA or MAF or whatever they call themselves this week, or the other FSA shortly to become FCA and all the rest (the vast majority)

These are just jobs which are undertaken by pure personal choice, or by happenstance, same as our private sector jobs, not by any vocational calling into service. Part of your decision was the pension, same as it was for us in sifting between private sector opportunities.

But you do your nursing, ambulance, and teaching staff colleagues a disservice by donning their caring service banner as your own.

I don't know exactly what you do personally Moby, but one of your comments about your probationers driving away from their appointments in their BMWs kind of presents a sorry picture which you choose to remain part of. Whether it was always like that, and why you personally chose a job in the probation service is purely your business.

It doesn't mean we must automatically feel sorry for you on the basis of "Yes it is not a nice situation, but its the best we've got, and someone has to do it - give him a gold plate pension". You may have got caught up in an evolved role through no fault of your own, but now you are justifying your staying in it by the perk of that gold-plate pension. I got the impression that you didn't enjoy your job but you will stay as long as the job and the pension exists? Maybe you have been in it so long that there is no real choice but to Keep Calm And Carry On?

If so, it's hard luck, but ultimately your choice.

You will notice that jackyann was not trying quite so hard to defend her nursing pension in quite the same way you are. Very few vocations are as special as nursing, but we even have to be careful who we are giving the gold-plate perks to in nursing too, don't we? I am sure jackyann knows who the shirkers are in the modern setup which she finds a bit of a strain whilst trying to maintain her high standards.

No-one doubts that policemen and firemen have to deal with some very ugly scenes whether it be attending motorcyclists or children in crashed cars with their heads knocked off or rapid response units dealing with the results of stabbings and shootings.

Maybe you have had an ugly scene or two in your role. You either dare do such a job or you don't. You weigh the risks with the rewards and a lot of youngsters entering policing and the fire service are attracted by the excitement and macho. You can't retrospectively claim it as a vocational calling to public service.

And you blame the demise of private sector pensions ful square on the assumed apathy or lethargy of private sector employees?

Moby wrote:

Much of this was financed by reckless decisions the most prominent of which was that many of the major companies took 'pension holidays' and paid out bonuses and had generous company car schemes to compensate. It was very irresponsible and completely wrong and people should be directing their energies to dealing with this.

Many of those reckless decisions you are taking about were made and upheld or blind eye turned to by public sector employees who were supposed to uphold the law.

I am not sure what your reference to generous company car schemes was to illustrate, AFAIK, there has been little advantage in the common man having a company car for at least 15 years due to the way they are taxed. Perhaps you know of such a scheme being introduced as a bribe to give up a final salary pension and more fool the private sector bods if they took it? Doesn't seem to have stopped some of the public sector workers I know having nice company cars, and I don't mean the ones with blue lights on! I don't know how they are expensed or taxed. Same as private sector I guess.

You are right about the proposed changes being political. So they were when a whole slice of your public sector colleagues working for the toothless multiple watchdogs failed to enforce any law to stop the private sector doing the same thing to us.

Now it is just a question of fairness. Unless, as I have said before, you are committed to reintroducing / reinstating private sector defined benefit schemes without delay, then without delay you should start preparing yourselves for something like we were force-fed and which your lot rather smuggly ignored at your peril as well as ours.