Public sector wellcome to the real world

toshy

toshy wrote: »

I'm not used to how things work in the private sector, however all workers in the EU be it private or public sector fall under European Leglisation. It may be an option to follow this route? I do know that many private sector employers in the past have been forced by their employees to comply with this leglisation.

I can give an example of how this worked in my workplace. Support staff contracts originally stated that all breaks were unpaid. So if we were contracted to work for 7 hrs a day and took a 1 hour lunch break we neeeded to be at work for 8 hrs. according to our employer.
Under EU leglisation if you work for more than 6 hours it is statutory to give workers a minimum of 20 mins paid break, at 8 hours this is increased. We successfully got this agreement so now all staff working more than 6 hrs per day have a 20 mins paid break.

toshy

toshy wrote: »

I can give an example of how this worked in my workplace. Support staff contracts originally stated that all breaks were unpaid. So if we were contracted to work for 7 hrs a day and took a 1 hour lunch break we neeeded to be at work for 8 hrs. according to our employer.
Under EU leglisation if you work for more than 6 hours it is statutory to give workers a minimum of 20 mins paid break, at 8 hours this is increased. We successfully got this agreement so now all staff working more than 6 hrs per day have a 20 mins paid break.

This may help? From EU employment directives.
The terms of reference by which the employer is required to consult consists of the following;

• economic, financial and strategic developments;
• structure and foreseeable development of employment and related measures;
• Decisions likely to lead to substantial changes in work organisation or contractual relations.

A serious breach of the obligations consists of the following as set out in the EU Council Directive:

• total absence of information and/or consultation of the employees' representatives prior to a decision being taken or the public announcement of such decision;
• Withholding of important information or provision of inaccurate information rendering ineffective the exercise of the right to information and consultation

toshy

atush wrote: »

I personally had less antagoism for the PS until you started your rant and didnt' justify your positions or answer my Q's.

I used to think you were unfortunate and didn't quite grasp today's realities. Now having sat thru your diatribes w/o answer, I think I may (for the first time in my life ever) go over to the dark side and agree with the Daily Mail.

I think, perhaps all on your own, you have put the PS sector back a notch in public sympathy.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me which of the questions you say you asked I didn't answer. I cannot see your questions anywhere on this thread. Please repost them and I will respond.

toshy

toshy wrote: »

I'm still waiting for you to tell me which of the questions you say you asked I didn't answer. I cannot see your questions anywhere on this thread. Please repost them and I will respond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atush
If you work in a school, why only 24 days off? you work when the school is closed? For summer and easter, oct /feb half term, xmas?

Yes I do! I'm afraid the equipment used and the room services do not magically repair themselves in the holidays. Nor do all the textbooks suddenly decide to find all their covers and missing pages or all the resources needed by teachers jump out of the printer or laminator and neatly pop themselves into envelopes in sets ready for class use. The plugs on the electrical equipment cannot PAT test themselves and the LEV cannot check it's airflow! The stock levels cannot ammend themselves on the database, and the assets cannot wave at the asset register to say "hello, I'm here" and low stock does not automatically shout to the suppliers and say send me more!
School holidays are busy times for support staff as it is the only time we can do all these things when equipment and services are not in use.

This was my reply to the only Q atush asked. i.e. about my holidays and if I worked during school holidays.
Unless of course atush has more than 1 user-name, in which case he needs to come clean and tell me the Q's he wants me to answer.
I should warn you, I'm a very reasonable person but I never tolerate unfairness or false accusations. I've developed those skills since working in a school, where of course pupils can do no wrong! :rotfl:

2sides2everystory

Toshy, I know I am just as guilty sometimes in my own way, but I think you may be over-egging it old son with six consecutive posts, and no responses - you need to let others in the debate take breath - be patient - the world and his wife have been watching Wimbledon this afternoon not thinking much about public sector pensions

There is a kind of tribalism emerging between public sector/private sector ... like homo erectus/homo sapiens or homo sapiens/neanderthal.

Those of us in private sector see your anecdote about winning breaks according to EU legislation as a rather soft union victory - your breed of superiors never had much stomach for cannibalising your rights in the face of published new law. They are after all, a branch of the government. Contrast this with private sector employers, who half the time even if they lose in the employment tribunal, just bully their victims into submission or even ignore the ruling of the judge at final hearing if it gets that far, with relative impunity.

In the neanderthal sector, employee relations (ER) have frequently been bloody ugly lately, and private sector employees generally were kowtowed starting a good ten years ago. All things being equal, the private/public ER balance could have turned again as things used to do in cycles, but cycles were disrupted with the huge influx of new EU economic migrants and the private sector labour market in particular has taken on a very subservient and devalued character partly as a result of the grateful migrants who are glad of our minimum wage levels or even less.

Generally speaking, it is clear that public sector labour is still mollycoddled in many different ways, not just in respect of their pensions.

toshy

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Toshy, I know I am just as guilty sometimes in my own way, but I think you may be over-egging it old son with six consecutive posts, and no responses - you need to let others in the debate take breath - be patient - the world and his wife have been watching Wimbledon this afternoon not thinking much about public sector pensions

There is a kind of tribalism emerging between public sector/private sector ... like homo erectus/homo sapiens or homo sapiens/neanderthal.

Those of us in private sector see your anecdote about winning breaks according to EU legislation as a rather soft union victory - your breed of superiors never had much stomach for cannibalising your rights in the face of published new law. They are after all, a branch of the government. Contrast this with private sector employers, who half the time even if they lose in the employment tribunal, just bully their victims into submission or even ignore the ruling of the judge at final hearing if it gets that far, with relative impunity.

In the neanderthal sector, employee relations (ER) have frequently been bloody ugly lately, and private sector employees generally were kowtowed starting a good ten years ago. All things being equal, the private/public ER balance could have turned again as things used to do in cycles, but cycles were disrupted with the huge influx of new EU economic migrants and the private sector labour market in particular has taken on a very subservient and devalued character partly as a result of the grateful migrants who are glad of our minimum wage levels or even less.

Generally speaking, it is clear that public sector labour is still mollycoddled in many different ways, not just in respect of their pensions.

I do apologise for the eggs 2 sides, I was simply responding to the replies I found I'd received, and also trying to suggest options to what you refer to as "The Neanderthal sector". I had totally forgotten that Wimbledon was on, my focus this week-end has been on up-dating stock levels and producing stock lists for the auditors coming into school tomorrow and also up-dating risk assessments ready for the Governing Body Meeting on Tuesday night.
They are important dead-lines which must be met.....and no, I do not get paid for the hours I've spent doing it this week-end, I do it because its my job and I didn't manage to finish it before leaving on Friday. However this thread has broken the monotony somewhat so thank you to all.
I'm very sorry you feel our union victory to get staff a paid break as soft, the feeedback we got from the 160 staff whom it affected was that it was much appreciated. Maybe taking a stance on the small things sends a message out to employers that workers are aware of their rights and makes them think twice before trying to by-pass leglisation in future?
If private sector employers "lose in the employment tribunal, just bully their victims into submission or even ignore the ruling of the judge at final hearing" I can only presume that they feel they can do so because the employees chose to take it and not challenge? If so then that is the employees choice. "Lay down and be trodden on"
No-one ever said life was fair and you get nothing without making an effort. But there are things which can be changed. From reading your post, my impression is that the private sector Neanderthals throw down the towel at the first obstacle they hit.
We can never hope to win everything we try to, but at least if you give it a fair crack you can at least say I did my best.
I thought that the coalition government were cracking down on immigration and giving UK nationals first chomp at the bit? If this is not the case in your area of work, what are you doing about it?

NeilJ1975

Its terrible that there is so much criticism for public sector workers fighting to preserve their pensions. Whilst good in British terms, public sector pensions here are a lot worse than other developed OECD countries (most of which don't have as much debt as us).

If some of the posters on here took the energy from there hate of the public sector and put it toward fighting for better pensions and retirement conditions for all, we'd live in a lot happier country.

toshy

NeilJ1975 wrote: »

Its terrible that there is so much criticism for public sector workers fighting to preserve their pensions. Whilst good in British terms, public sector pensions here are a lot worse than other developed OECD countries (most of which don't have as much debt as us).

If some of the posters on here took the energy from there hate of the public sector and put it toward fighting for better pensions and retirement conditions for all, we'd live in a lot happier country.

Well said Neil!

2sides2everystory

Neil wrote:

If some of the posters on here took the energy from there hate of the public sector and put it toward fighting for better pensions and retirement conditions for all, we'd live in a lot happier country.

Sorry, but you are far too late. What you are saying is a little like suggesting that had we private sector herrings not let ourselves get stitched up like kippers, then they'd never have moved on to smoking you salmon and trout! They who now pull the strings have the taste for it. It's a cheap way of preserving something that otherwise would go rotten much more quickly.

It's inevitable now. You'll have to get used to it like the rest of us else move to one of the European countries where you can start building a better pension. They pickle theirs I think

And toshy, you are giving yourselves too much credit for having made any laudible effort. Take a look at the Employment and Redundancy boards on here for some real suffering and strikeback effort over a very long period. We in the private sector, if we are not neanderthal, might say "Where have you been?".

toshy

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Sorry, but you are far too late. What you are saying is a little like suggesting that had we private sector herrings had not let ourselves get stitched up like kippers, then they'd never have moved on to smoking you salmon and trout! They who now pull the strings have the taste for it. It's a cheap way of preserving something that otherwise would go rotten much more quickly.

It's inevitable now. You'll have to get used to it like the rest of us else move to one of the European countries where you can start building a better pension. They pickle theirs I think

And toshy, you are giving yourselves too much credit for having made any laudible effort. Take a look at the Employment and Redundancy boards on here for some real suffering and strikeback effort over a very long period. We in the private sector, if we are not neanderthal, might say "Where have you been?".

So what exactly is your gripe 2 sides?
Are you expecting the public sector unions to help private sector workers who are not members?
Or is this really about us taking action and responsibility to protect ourselves when the private sector has been happy to sit back and take what has been dealt to them, and only just woken up to the fact that they no longer like it?
In the last year most job losses and redundancies have been in the public sector, this was to reduce government costs. Public sector unions have worked with the Government to reduce the impact on workers whilst moving towards achieving the cost reduction. Clearly not every-one can be happy all the time, but some element of compromise has been reached.
Welcome to the real world private sector workers....it's time to get off your butts and take some action, just like we have done!
And when you do, maybe you'll finally get off our case!!