Public sector wellcome to the real world

toshy

ILW wrote: »

Nobody is disputing that some parts of the public sector are necessary. But until they find it impossible to get recruits, why are they offering such generous pensions?
I believe that whenever the fire service have a recruitment drive they get around 250 applications for each position.

Have you looked at the salaries and hours worked? Would you go into a job which regularly risks your life, if there was not a good pension scheme to provide for your family if you died as a result of your job?

CFC

toshy wrote: »

If the public sector unions succeed in making improvements then the private sector unions can use this as a reference point in future.

And that just shows how far public sector workers are from the real world...sooner they're brought into it the better!

ILW

toshy wrote: »

Have you looked at the salaries and hours worked? Would you go into a job which regularly risks your life, if there was not a good pension scheme to provide for your family if you died as a result of your job?

It does appear many would, the number of applicants for each vacancy seems to bear this out.

Insurance could provide for death in service which is a separate issue to pensions.

CFC

dori2o wrote: »

When people compare jobs to the public sector, such as the call centre analogy a few pages back, they are not comparing like for like business practice. They also do not take into account that a lot of private sector contact entres are sales driven, therefore the employee in the private sector can earn commission on their salaries, and in many cases, this commission is worth not only a few pense, but is the incentive to work there as it is almost guaranteed.

The PS don't get commission on for example the amount of tax they manage to recover. Those in the private sector also have access to employer benefits such as company cars, medical insurance, preferential loans etc. Again, these are not available in the public services, especially at the lower end of the scale.

I applied for a job at Barclays, and was offered it, doing call centre work- cold calling to recover outstanding balances- arrange payment plans etc, something similar to what I do at HMRC, collecting money people don't want to or can't pay.

Basic salary was £19500 +plus a £7500 benefits package, + upto £3.5k per month commission.

Why didn't I leave. After speaking with my family and union and people outside these 2 (including speaking to existing Barclays emloyees regarding the employers reaction to disabled employees who need time off to attend medical appointments/therapy or just eed time to rest/recouperate (i.e. be ill)) I decided to stay as it has taken 4 years to get settled with my disability and get my employer to make adjustments etc, and I didn't fancy going through that again with all the stress it has already caused.

But it is a good example of how the private sector do have better options that he public sector when it comes to pay.

In your dreams 'better options'. A sales job is not the same as a normal customer services contact centre job and sales jobs are very much the minority in contact centres. Not to mention that Barclays 7.5k benefits would probably turn out to be a porkie and I doubt very much that anyone other than the top 2% would be getting that level of commission and that would be after some period of time. You would also have to pass the FSA certificate within one year, can't remember what it's called. Fail the initial training and you're out. Fail the certificate within one year and you're out. Salaries tend to be higher in sales because there is a direct revenue attached. Calling people up for tax owed ie 'it isn't voluntary' is not exactly like for like as a sales job, is it?

Although to be honest you do tend to find the higher salaries in the banking sector, competing with the public sector in this area, oh why do you think that might be - do you think it is because there is a bottomless cheque book AKA known as the rest of us paying for it? CORRECT!

Why do you think that there has been a lot of movement towards outsourcing contact centres for government work? Answer, because even with a profit going to the outsourcer and the outsourcer in the UK, it is still a LOT cheaper than employing directly.
Sadly councils prefer to keep their own call centres as they like to expand their empires...and we all have to pay their inflated salaries.
And call centres are just one example.

Moby

Uglymug wrote: »

Sorry, I thought I’d mentioned I drove a six year old Mondeo, I haven’t got and never have had a flashy company car, I think the majority of private sector workers have never had a flashy company car. Only one of the 5 companies I’ve worked for have provided them but that was for very senior managers, not the ordinary shop floor workers. I also haven’t had a bonus for over 10 years and prior to that it was only ever in the region of a couple of hundred pounds. You really do have a perverse view of what real life is like outside your cotton wool wrapped environment of the public sector.

Congratulations on attaining your pension, you’ve certainly managed to grab most of the pie there haven’t you. A 20K pension is what most of use can only dream of in the private sector. I’m certain nobody in my current small company will be able to save the £666,666 (that's two thirds of a million pounds) they’d need to purchase a similar pension. It seems, according to you, everyone in the private sector have made the wrong decisions in life. It’s extremely disheartening to see that you think we’re all mugs. I truly hope that this view is not shared within the majority of the public sector. I’ve always had a fairly good regard for the public sector, but unfortunately, after being involved with this thread, I’ve changed my opinion, and it’s not for the good.

If proof was ever needed that the system needs reforming this must be it, from his job description the poster seems to have implied he’s a fairly small cog in the system, the size of his pension is scandalous. Surely, everyone, even other moderate members of the public sector who’ve only managed to amassed a much smaller pension must see the injustice in this.

Haha there you go again crying because all your bonuses and good times have dried up in your self justifying tone. As I've said ad nauseum its all about life choices. I chose to top up my pension instead of pursuing the Thatcher dream and as I've said i've worked in a very difficult job, (at the sharp end of human misery) for 25 years in London. My peer group (who went to the private sector) made a lot more money than me but the trade off was less job security. You also have a short memory because during the late 80's and 90's many people working in the private sector were making 'loadsamoney' especially down here in London.

You see what's happening here is not just an argument about pensions but about what value we place on the jobs we do and the skills we have. I think a 20K pension is a fair return for what I do taking into account the sacrifices I made re. salary and lifestyle (and this is projected value after 35 years service !) Uglymug disagrees but frankly....they would wouldn't they! we don't know what he/she does; what their qualifications are; what the demands are for their role etc. We in the public sector were always patronised and told by our private sector colleagues....'I know you don't get paid much but youv'e gone into a vocation....and it must be very satisfying' Now apparently the tables have turned and I'm one of the haves instead of have nots.....as far as I'm concerned its about bloody time as well and I absolutely make no apology for having a good pension!

ani_26

toshy wrote: »

I am 61. I can qualify for a pension, but it is not sufficient to support me as I am on my own, hence my decision to purchase AVC's to boost my pension to £7,000 p.a.

Not even with your state pension, which i believe you DO qualify for , too?

ani_26

toshy wrote: »

There will need to be a move to bring public sector wages, working terms and conditions in line with the private sector, then the divide will be reduced.

I was'nt talking exclusively about public v private sector. The issue affects us all. You've got to look at the bigger picture.

ani_26

toshy wrote: »

When I realised that my public sector pension would not support me in my retirement, I borrowed extra on my mortgage to allow me to purchase AVC's. It means that I will need to work until I am 71 to pay off my mortgage but hopefully then I will be able to relax and enjoy my retirement. If I peg out before then, at least I have the comfort of knowing that my sons will gain some benefit.
C'est la vie!

There are many people in the real world, who can't even afford to think about pension plans, let pay into one, let alone contemplate paying avc's. There are also many people in the world who will be working into their 70's, also, to pay off their mortgages.

Many of these people in the real world, are paying into your pension pot, and have been for almost as long as you have.


I'm not sure borrowing extra on your mortgage to pay into your pension was a cost effective move, given the way interest rates were. Maybe now?

CLAPTON

ani_26 wrote: »

There are many people in the real world, who can't even afford to think about pension plans, let pay into one, let alone contemplate paying avc's. There are also many people in the world who will be working into their 70's, also, to pay off their mortgages.

Many of these people in the real world, are paying into your pension pot, and have been for almost as long as you have.


I'm not sure borrowing extra on your mortgage to pay into your pension was a cost effective move, given the way interest rates were. Maybe now?

In the real world its probable that people that poor are unlikely to be paying much NI or tax.

they probably won't even have contributed sufficient to pay for their own state pension

the 'value ' of the state pension enhanced with pension credits is over £200,000 which means that if they have worked say 40 years they would have needed to pay 5k per annum (in real terms) in NI and taxation just for the state pension element

toshy

ani_26 wrote: »

There are many people in the real world, who can't even afford to think about pension plans, let pay into one, let alone contemplate paying avc's. There are also many people in the world who will be working into their 70's, also, to pay off their mortgages.

Many of these people in the real world, are paying into your pension pot, and have been for almost as long as you have.


I'm not sure borrowing extra on your mortgage to pay into your pension was a cost effective move, given the way interest rates were. Maybe now?

I do hope I'm not being critisised for trying to ensure that I'm self-sufficient enough in my retirement to not need to draw further on the taxpayer by needing to claim pension credits or any other state support?
I have never believed in claiming benefits chosing to work full-time all my life rather than rely on them. In fact I feel the drain on the public purse due to benifit claims is one the taxpayer should worry about far more than public sector pensions! Many public sector workers on low salaries qualify for tax credits and other benefits. I totally agree with the Government's moves to make us all much more responsible for ourselves, but all the more reason to give low paid public sector workers a wage which will allow them to do so.
The recent outcry when child benefit was reduced or removed from those on higher salaries is a classic example of the intolerance of the "haves".

My decision to purchase AVC's was taken as a result of the advice of the financial advisor who was brought in to offer free advice to all staff in our school following the last pension changes in 2008. I am by no means an expert in pensions so took heed of the advice given. Yes I was lucky enough to be able to do so, because the only debt I have ever accrued has been my mortgage. I never take the stance of live now and pay later, if I don't have the money I don't spend and make do.