Unenforceable Parkforce so-called "PCNs"

vax2002

To be honest they are gearing up for this new legislation as the PPN mob are lobbying MP's to have the law changed so they can LEGALLY pursue registered keepers for charges and no-body is lobbying against, we are all too busy watching x-factor or corry.

RENEGADE_2

vax2002 wrote: »

To be honest they are gearing up for this new legislation as the PPN mob are lobbying MP's to have the law changed so they can LEGALLY pursue registered keepers for charges and no-body is lobbying against, we are all too busy watching x-factor or corry.

Nice to know you watch Corrie and X-Factor!:D I'm strictly a current affairs man with no interest in those things. Anyhow, you raise an interesting point.

Private clamping is on its way out. For those who know, it already contravenes a number of acts so formally naming it as illegal will draw attention to anyone continuing and will enable police to stop them in their tracks just as if they were planting a bomb. Issuing private tickets is similar in that we know it breaches laws but it differs in that they have the task of exacting the money. To legalise PCNs would strike at the heart of the fabric of constitutional legislation and open a can of worms because it would mean uproot the entire system. At most, you will get a set of byelaws either new or added to existing. We have this with the railways (Byelaw 14) but how has this helped CRAPCOA when it has pinned tickets to the wrong man's window? If it is made legal, it becomes an offence against criminal law; it goes to magistrates; PPCs in turn will get nothing. We already know that switching the words "fine" or "penalty" to "charge" does not alter the technical effect which means we move to identification of driver. Once again, you can be confident that you still never do this to the third party PPC however you may be asked to produce the name BY the court. If so, you still have the argument of actual losses. Naturally, the laws to protect unfair contract terms may all be repealed but that works two ways: as a citizen, you'll always have the right to a hearing before you need part with money so they will still engage in their letter-chains which as you know can be deemed harassment. It is precisely in light of the PPC's right to sue yet they should send communications that you would also be involved in replies, which as has been said before, can include your terms and conditions for writing back to you directly, and you can be more expensive than them! When the case goes to court - " well you violated the terms you AGREED TO when you parked, so you owe these people £60. That £60 will however be deducted from the £1,000 they owe you since they breached the terms of your letter to them via recorded delivery. Dismissed". They MUST write to you once otherwise they risk pushing a case against the keeper who may be innocent, and if you deny being the driver, they can ONLY write back begging for information by which time you have told them the fee for the disclosure and for further correspondences. Indeed your one and only letter will also have said "if you believe me to have a debt, please arrange a hearing" so this whole venture goes full circle for them. The thing to remember with civil law as opposed to common law is, "if it's good for him, it's good for you" and everything is a two-way enterprise.

Don't get me wrong. I am no lawyer, but I realise that the practice of owning a carpark open to public and imposing terms is governed by Contract Law (Civil) not by allocation but by nature. To this end, we cannot move it from Contract and place it in Employment Law. It doesn't fit the bill. It is my honest opinion that the PPCs are coming to a sticky end and we MUST spread the word; all right, NOT for people like me to use disabled spots (I will not do it again) but so that we can all park our cars - respecting one another's needs - and enjoy the experience, and relax in the knowledge that we are safe from vampires.

Stigy

RENEGADE wrote: »

Hello to all good citizens....Yadda Yadda Yadda

You do realise that one day, a p*ssed off land owner is going to get so annyed, that you'll return to either no car at all, or some rather nice expletives etched on your bonnet, don't you?

Although I appreciate they're wholly unenforceable, every land owner has the right to charge a fee to park on thei own land, don't they? I could park on your driveway (assuming you have one), but I wouldn't. Would that make you cross? It's exactly the same scenario.

trisontana

Stigy wrote: »

You do realise that one day, a p*ssed off land owner is going to get so annyed, that you'll return to either no car at all, or some rather nice expletives etched on your bonnet, don't you?

Although I appreciate they're wholly unenforceable, every land owner has the right to charge a fee to park on thei own land, don't they? I could park on your driveway (assuming you have one), but I wouldn't. Would that make you cross? It's exactly the same scenario.

You seem to be confusing "private" land (i.e. somebody's driveway) and land where the public is invited to park, such as supermarkets and retail parks. The vast majority of complaints about PPCs are to do with the latter, where, because some of their silly "rules" are broken, they demand sums of money that bears no relation to the actual loss suffered. Nobody on here is advocating not paying to park in those car-parks.

RENEGADE_2

Stigy wrote: »

I could park on your driveway (assuming you have one), but I wouldn't. Would that make you cross? It's exactly the same scenario.

Let's not get carried away. The above statement by Trisontana reinforces the point that there is a difference between a private space open to public for parking and one's own property. I had no intention of even entering a landowner's premise let alone leave my car there. I'm not sure whether your comment was aimed a my seminal post or my most recent which challenged possible changes to the law, but if it were the latter then I was simply presenting an analysis on how the issue can still be skirted; that the entire reason these documents are unenforceable is due to existing laws which affect things further afield. I believe this is fair and helpful to ordinary folk, it does not encourage breach of peace!

Dave101t

you do know that you have NO RIGHT to park on private land. Shopping car parks are still private. The only reason you get away without the fines is they cant be bothered to go to court. if they did, you would lose every time.

trisontana

Dave101t wrote: »

you do know that you have NO RIGHT to park on private land. Shopping car parks are still private. The only reason you get away without the fines is they cant be bothered to go to court. if they did, you would lose every time.

Wrong in a couple of ways. For a start they are not "fines". There have been court cases and the parking companies have lost becuase the judge has ruled that the monies demanded are unfair penalties which do not reflect to actual loss suffered by the landowner.

Stigy

trisontana wrote: »

You seem to be confusing "private" land (i.e. somebody's driveway) and land where the public is invited to park, such as supermarkets and retail parks. The vast majority of complaints about PPCs are to do with the latter, where, because some of their silly "rules" are broken, they demand sums of money that bears no relation to the actual loss suffered. Nobody on here is advocating not paying to park in those car-parks.

RENEGADE was refering to parking whereby a fee is usually charged to do so, as far as I can make out (permit holders only still counts because chances are, a fee was charged for the permits). At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the land is, it's owned by someone, and any land owner has the right to set down rules as to how people park on their land. Even if it's free to park for a set period. If you don't like the terms, don't use the car park.

RENEGADE_2

Dave101t wrote: »

you do know that you have NO RIGHT to park on private land. Shopping car parks are still private. The only reason you get away without the fines is they cant be bothered to go to court. if they did, you would lose every time.

NO RIGHT? Cannot park on shopping car parks because they are private? So shoppers who park at Tesco have NO RIGHT? I don't know whether to take this remark seriously!!!

Nobody gets away with fines because it is not a fine that is issued.

As for "can't be bothered", WHO can't be bothered? Where did you get that information? Is it hard work? They wouldn't even need to show, they could simply assign a lawyer to represent them on the day and after he has won their case, he may reclaim the victor's costs from the losing party. Trisontana was slightly inaccurate with the remark that your post had a couple of things wrong, it was infact entirely wrong from top to bottom!

As a matter of fact, not even "Shopping car parks are still private" is correct. There are thousands of nationwide shoppers' carparks run by authorities and this includes supermarkets as well as malls.

Coupon-mad

Dave101t wrote: »

you do know that you have NO RIGHT to park on private land. Shopping car parks are still private. The only reason you get away without the fines is they cant be bothered to go to court. if they did, you would lose every time.

Flippin' heck, for a regular MSEer you are very badly uninformed - I do hope when you were a student you didn't study law? Or maybe you just have a sense of humour or like winding people up!

The motorist would lose every time LOL! How would a PPC know who was driving? And as for calling it a 'fine'?! :rotfl:

Hetherington Jakeman case

Tasneem Patel case against a PPC

OPC convicted and fined for criminal offences this year

Very recent case - taken to Court by NHS Hospital Trust (pepipoo poster won of course)

If you really were credulous enough to believe that old twaddle you managed to post, you really need to read the sticky threads such as 'welcome, please read before posting' on this sub-forum:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163

The Watchdog clip will reveal all, surely, if the penny really has not yet dropped that PPC fake tickets are a scam.

Never take a ticket seriously that does not come from a real authority. ONLY the Police, TFL or a Council (and the odd Train Operating Company on a bad day) can issue real penalty notices for parking.