Unenforceable Parkforce so-called "PCNs"

RENEGADE_2

Headed for the town centre and found a car park for "permit holders only" managed by Parkforce. Just as I arrived, a young gentleman in his SIA badge approached the vehicle, "you're not gonna park there are you? Can't you see the signs!" to which I replied "between you and me mate, I'm not the registered keeper so I ain't fussed!", he goes "they're definitely gonna put a ticket on..." so I said "thanks for the good advice", short story over. We went our separate ways, few minutes later I returned to find the Parkforce PCN which made me realise he may have been the issuer but chose not to be confrontational. I placed the red and white chequered toilet paper in the vehicle as I headed out again; this time I ran into two policewomen who had stopped me upon spotting my description "big fat bloke in shorts, etc" and the mouth of the two (other one remaining quiet) asked me if I were the driver of the specific vehicle, "yes" I said.
"Well could you remove it please because it is parked on private land?"
"Oh? Is that a problem?"
"Of course it is! You don't have a permit...and besides, you told a representative that you are not the owner of the car and we are concerned you are not insured."
"Look, I am the driver, I never told him that!"
"Oh what, so he's lying?"
Now, feeling the pressure and baffled why the Filth, paid from my Council Tax is engaging in Ultra Vires activity to maintain good relations with a company that gets its wages from illicit bullying, I knew she could neither have arrested me nor arranged to have my car so much as touched; but I was on the spot. So I caved in (besides, I don't wish to be on the wrong side of police as it is they on whom we ultimately depend when legislation is violated).

"All right, he's not lying, I'll go and move the car"...although it was my word against his.

DOWN TO BUSINESS
Of course I am not going to pay, appeal or contact them. I expect however that they will request my details and begin their love-letter process. Now, I am furious about the intervention of the Fuzz girl(s) and I am considering Police Complaints as she may have hampered my first and favourite fightback tool. She and her "nice PPC pals" had clearly communicated as she recounted the bloke's version of events. It is therefore likely she got back onto her radio and sent an aftermath message, "its ok, he's gonna move it...oh and after denying your story, he finally admitted yes he was the keeper". If so, he may add this wording onto some kind of report which is sent to their shed depot where they !!!! each other off in Ashton and the "Notice to Owner" invoice may just hint the reasonable grounds on which they suspect the registered keeper was also the driver. Fat chance of me sending a "!!!! Off" reply by denying the claim on account of being the keeper when the matter is with the driver - wording chosen carefully here. Naturally this does not sound the death knell for my cash! There is still the argument that the amount they seek does not reflect actual losses and therefore breaches the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 (and possibly others), but their "terms" would have ranked fairly reasonable compared to mine, which would have admonished them not to write to me again unless they agreed to a £400 charge for doing so; and I would have embellished my letter with chequered squares as this is the only language they seem to know. But I cannot do this either!!! Can't accuse someone of offence when I am doing the same!

At this point, I'd like to tell you all why I am taking the militant approach, it is simply to avoid the letters from their representatives. My message is "Fuск off - don't write back". After spending time researching their stupidity, I have encountered rather interesting literature which irrevocably incriminates them.

Have a read of this:

Should you wish to cancel any issued parking charge ticket for whatever reason within 14 days, it will be done free of charge.This ensures that only genuine offenders and not customers etc are penalised should a parking charge be issued in error.

Oh dear! What a howler!!! :rotfl: Their tickets circa 2009 contained the word "Penalty" but at some time these past months, it has been amended to "Parking". I now know thanks to this clanger that whatever they call it when they issue it is intended as a "penalty" (penalise: verb- impose penalty). So I can take great pleasure in a letter like this (sneak preview).

Dear Sir

I return the document sent to me which I have marked VOID as it is wholly invalid. Arbitrary fines were made illegal centuries ago and your demand violates a number of acts (***I'll name them***). Evidence that this is intended as a penalty is here: (***here I will paste/print their own wording to their clients***) so I now order you to cease this illicit haraassment campaign as I am not obliged to cooperate further. If you believe me to owe this money otherwise, please commence litigation. You or any third part acting on your behalf are not to write to me again or it shall be reported to the authorities.

RENEGADE


But of course, mine will be longer and more professional (I will state the harassment laws for example).

...and if it goes to court, it is here that I shall raise the "actual losses" argument.

Now then experts, have I missed something? Is there any advice I require? Remember, I only wish for the nonsense to stop and not to receive their rubbish. I would welcome ANY comments... you must see how this "police tart" threw a spanner in the works.

All the best

Coupon-mad

I reckon that people who write to PPCs get the usual letter-chain, regardless. I would love to more letters from a PPC as each one costs them money.

If the parking goon called the Police then there's no way they will have 'reported back to him'. The will only have taken it seriously if they had nothing better to do that day - I expect they were PCSOs?

And of course, neither EuroCarParks nor Parkforce ever do Court. So no worries there.

I do share your aim to bring PPC World to an end though, really I do. It is shocking that this proctection racket is not only allowed but that major retailers, hospitals etc. actively encourage it against their own customers/staff.

RENEGADE_2

Thanks Coupon-Mad

When you say it costs them money, you do only mean stamp and ink don't you? Or is there more?

HOSPITALS! There's a thought. If you ever visit the Royal United Hospital in Bath, there is one bay where visiting cars can park and pay at machine, the rest are beyond barriers making the game more difficult. As I know a great deal of staff at the RUH, and these people pay BIG BUCKS for their season tickets, I might just show them how cheap it can be! I read somehwere about one man who displayed his hundreds of PCN-certificates on his dashboard!

Coupon-mad

RENEGADE wrote: »

Thanks Coupon-Mad

When you say it costs them money, you do only mean stamp and ink don't you? Or is there more?

HOSPITALS! There's a thought. If you ever visit the Royal United Hospital in Bath, there is one bay where visiting cars can park and pay at machine, the rest are beyond barriers making the game more difficult. As I know a great deal of staff at the RUH, and these people pay BIG BUCKS for their season tickets, I might just show them how cheap it can be! I read somehwere about one man who displayed his hundreds of PCN-certificates on his dashboard!

I mean mainly stamp and ink but also stationery, man hours etc.

Also if you wanted to really hit back with an allegation of harassment (where you could be due monetary damages as per the British Gas harassment case) then you would really need those threatograms to show the intimidation employed.

Have to say that we regulars do not agree with deliberately parking for free whenever and where ever you can. If there is a P&D machine then pay, or drive out & look for a free car park.

If there is a disabled bay then please leave it empty for someone with a disability need, even though you and I both know that on private land these bays are just 'advisory'. They are still there for a reason and to comply with the Equality Act, and people with a disability may well only be able to park there, and nowhere else, if they need the wider bay/close proximity to a store.

It's not only a question of lecturing about a moral code. Think about it - actions like yours, taking up disabled bays and parking deliberately in permit holder places is EXACTLY the reason PPCs exist in the first place. We hate the fact they exist, and detest their protection racket and harassment - but retailers/hospitals etc. surely only got them in to start with due to inconsiderate parkers.

RENEGADE_2

Concerning the disabled business. I probably won't this in future, once or twice was enough and it is not my intention to cause inconvenience for genuine persons. I get ParkingEye and CPUK frequently through the post, you need only overstay at Motorway services and they use the highly controversial and unenforceable ANPR. For these I have my reasons and they will continue regardless - but I have never seen the car parks even half-full; masses come and go on the coaches. My activity is nocternal anyhow so it is even quieter. A day will have to come when landowners cease this racket and stop using the services of the cowboys, and erect signs such as "2 hours max PLEASE if you can - be considerate to other customers, many thanks". If you appeal to another person's conscience rather than threaten him with fraudulent fees, the whole world will be better. Of course there will be the occasional abuser, but then overstaying by an hour is not what you nor I would call "an abuse", it is possibly for all genuine reasons. On the whole, abuse will drop. I for one would definitely observe fair regulations. I need to find a way of spinning plates: getting at the sharks but NOT disrupting other motorists. This is a hard one!

trisontana

RENEGADE wrote: »

A day will have to come when landowners cease this racket and stop using the services of the cowboys, and erect signs such as "2 hours max PLEASE if you can - be considerate to other customers, many thanks". If you appeal to another person's conscience rather than threaten him with fraudulent fees, the whole world will be better.

This is already happening in our local Sainsburys. The disabled bays have a sign which says "If you are disabled, these spaces are for your use. If you are not disabled, please leave the bays free for those who need them". No mention of blue badges, time limits or penalties. And the place is a PPC free zone. This system seems to work and there are always disabled bays for those who need them.

I agree with coupon that we should pay any P&D fees and stay clear of disabled and permit holder spaces. That way you retain the moral high-ground over the PPC. You are the good guy, and they are the bad.

It's been said before that PPCs are offering a "solution" to a non existent problem. Supermarket and retail car-parks seemed to manage OK before they came along. For a PPC it's not about parking management, it's just a way of screwing money out of unsuspecting motorists. This is why you get those stupid and artificial time limits in large retail centres which may have numerous shops, restaurants and even a cinema, and you are only "allowed" to park there for a couple of hours. Plus the time limits in motorway service areas, even though you are told repeatedly not to drive when tired and to take a rest-break.

giraffe69

but retailers/hospitals etc. surely only got them in to start with due to inconsiderate parkers.

Most hospitals got the PPCs in to supplement their income.

trisontana

giraffe69 wrote: »

Most hospitals got the PPCs in to supplement their income.

That's correct. Somebody over on PePiPoo found a document from Aintree Hospital that actually used the words "revenue stream" when discussing car-parking and associated "penalties".

halibut2209

So you deliberately park in disabled bays? It's people like you who cause companies to hire PPCs in the first place. I hope you get stung.

AlexisV

If you want to nail a PPC you need to engage with both the company and the landowner e.g. Sainsburys, build up a letter collection and then suffer the harrassment from their debt collectors.

Then sue them both as per Ferguson vs British Gas.

RENEGADE_2

halibut2209 wrote: »

So you deliberately park in disabled bays? It's people like you who cause companies to hire PPCs in the first place. I hope you get stung.

Stung? You mean you hope I receive a blatantly unfair demand which I end up having to pay even though no law countenances this? Maybe I said too much... I have a number of tickets, that is all that is relevant. When I say "I get them on purpose", that does not quite mean I drive out of my way for them - of course I have reason to go wherever I need to. It means that I won't make a special effort to avoid the tickets. Apart from the disabled incidents (two to be precise), which I assure everyone I will not do in future; and this permit-holder event, everything else is 100% morally innocent even if it does violate the terms of their boards. To be completely honest, I aim to ease the fears of the weak/unsuspecting, not justify private actions to the cognoscenti.