3 - charging for text delivery receipts

JudasPriest

Dark79 wrote: »

Sounds interesting..... I too am fighting to get out my contract due to this, they have told me they gave del reports as a free additional service, but I'm sorry free and additional service cannot be used in the same sentence based on their definition in t&c's, told them the only way this can happen would be to charge for them then apply a credit to make them free but no response to this yet.

I'd not worry too much. I think the new method leaves far less room for argument. Not sure what time it'll be done, as the site is going down for maintenance at 1am. But it'll be up ASAP.

stevehwuk

Hi All,

I am just waiting for confirmation of being at deadlock with three, but have been having a look at the dispute resolution provided by otelo/ombudsman services. Looking at their website for ombudsman services under the section about what they do/dont do - it seems to state they cant deal with complaints about terms and conditions. As my complaint is you've broken your terms and conditions - will they deal with the complaint? Or are people planning to complain else where?

Cheers

JudasPriest

3_Executive_Office wrote: »

Zzzzzzzz.......

Hah, that made me laugh!

From their current terms and conditions, "
99310-02 May11"

Glossary. Specific words and phrases that need further explanation.

Three Services (or Services): the services offered by Three, including call services, Messaging Services, Storage Services, Age Restricted Services and Premium Services, which we have agreed to provide for you.

Messaging Services: any email, fax and voicemail Services, SMS and multimedia messaging Services, personal information management and other message or communication facilities which let you communicate with others and which are specified in the List of Services.

(^Don't be fooled or fobbed-off with the "and which are specified in the List of Services" bit - that's a part of the "and other message or communication facilities" sentence.)

Terms and Conditions for using the Three network. All the things you need to know now that you’re using our network and services."

Terms for using the Three network
General Terms
1. Who’s who and what’s what
1.1 When we say:
(a) ‘we’, ‘us’ or ‘our’, we mean Hutchison 3G UK Limited, trading as ‘Three’;
(b) ‘you’ or ‘your’, we mean you, our customer;
(c) ‘agreement’, we mean your agreement with us for the supply of Three Services.

4. Variations to your agreement or prices
4.1 We may vary any of the terms of your agreement, including our Packages, on the following basis:
(a) any updated Packages and new terms will be available on our website and on request to Three Customer Services;
(b) we will let you know at least one month in advance if we decide to:
(i) discontinue your Package; or
(ii) make any variations to your agreement which are likely to be of detriment to you; or
(iii) increase the fixed periodic charges for your Package (if applicable) by an amount which is more than the percentage increase in the Retail Prices Index Figure (or any future equivalent) in any twelve month period. You can end the agreement for such variations as explained in Section 10.
Subject to the above, you will not be able to end the agreement if such variation or increase:
(i) is due to changes to the law, government regulation or licence which affect us; or
(ii) relates solely to Additional Services; or
(iii) relates solely to Add-on(s) (if applicable to you). In such circumstances you will not be able to end your agreement but you will be able to cancel the Add-on(s) by giving us 30 days’ written notice; and
(c) if you carry on using Three Services after the variation commences, you will be deemed to have accepted the variation.

5.8 We may:
(a) change or withdraw some, or part, of the Three Services from time to time. This may be because of changing technologies, obsolescence, new or different product features, changing content providers or the need to remove, replace or modify content.
Subject to Section 4.1, you can end the agreement if this variation is likely to be of material detriment to you as explained in Section 10.

10. Ending this agreement and Disconnection of Three Services
10.1 You may end this agreement in the following ways:
(d) Within one month of a detrimental variation to your agreement. You can end the agreement within one month of us telling you about a variation to your agreement (which includes your Package) which is likely to be of detriment to you. You must give notice to Three Customer Services within that month and your agreement will finish at the end of that month once we receive your notice. (A Cancellation Fee will not be charged.)

It's a bit late for me to start writing a letter up. But I'd say something along these lines...

1. Per 1.1(c), Three offered free SMS delivery reports when I took out my contract. Whether I used them or not, I accepted it as part of my agreement to the supply of services.
2. Per 5.8(a), Three have changed part of the "Three Services".
3. The definition of "Three Services" within the contract glossary specifically includes "Messaging Services".
4. The definition of "Messaging Services" within the contract glossary states "SMS and multimedia messaging services".
5. SMS delivery reports are part of both the GSM and CDMA SMS messaging specification.
7. Per 10.1(d), cancel. At contract inception the use these services were included free of charge. They clearly fall under Three's definition of "Messaging Services", and given they are part of the SMS standard set by 3GPP, I can't see a single reason where Three can argue otherwise. A free service switching to a paid-for service is obviously to the detriment of any customer, whether they've used the service or not - they were free at the point of contract inception.

A final point - those of you questioning whether you have to stop using all services from Three - we're of the opinion that this isn't required. Three have broken the contract by introducing changes to the agreement without the required period of notice. Three have again failed to adhere to the agreement by refusing to let you leave, provisioned to you under 10.1(d). You shouldn't be bound by terms within the contract restricting your choices when Three have already denied your contractual rights to leave, or be released from contract. But you do need to phone and request that you're released from your contract - whilst you may still have a valid claim after the introduction of charging, this will certainly help strengthen your position.

Exercise caution, and follow what you believe to be in your own best-interests. I'm not a lawyer, but you're welcome to a refund of the purchase price of this information if we have it wrong... And all this was done after a couple of beers, using notepad. Expect typos...

A final note - "List of Services". Three state this document will be available on their website - I've looked. I've used their search. I've done a Google site search - nothing, anywhere. They also state this is available from customer services - they'd not heard of it when I phoned and asked for it, nor their sales team. My earlier request was for other people who could spend a little time on the phone and get this list - nobody managed. Does it exist? We don't know... and because nobody appears to have seen it, nor have their employees every heard of it, it's hugely questionable that any references to it within the contract can stick, as no customer would have had the chance to frequent themselves with it.

Happy Friday!

OneADay

There is an interesting article here

http://www.bitterwallet.com/do-the-changes-to-3s-international-tariffs-mean-you-can-cancel/11636

Text delivery report is an optional/additional service which can be turned off. As such 3 can apply the following clause

"ii) relates solely to Additional Services; or"

To be determinental to you, the cost per month to you would have to increase significantly (10% or so I would imagine).

Saying that if you can prove they did not give 30 days notice, you have a chance to cancel or they might just back down and give you some credit.

JudasPriest

OneADay wrote: »

There is an interesting article here

http://www.bitterwallet.com/do-the-changes-to-3s-international-tariffs-mean-you-can-cancel/11636

Text delivery report is an optional/additional service which can be turned off. As such 3 can apply the following clause

"ii) relates solely to Additional Services; or"

See the capital letters? They don't refer to just additional services, they refer to Additional Services. They were good enough to explain to us all, within the contract, of what this term means.

1.2 We also have set out in the glossary at the back of this section some useful definitions of words we use in these Terms for Three Services

And from the glossary:

Additional Services: additional or supplemental services for which a charge is made in addition to the fixed periodic charges for your Package or Add-on(s) (if applicable).

Once charging commences, they meet the criteria of an Additional Service. So before charging was introduced, what were they?

OneADay

JudasPriest wrote: »

Once charging commences, they meet the criteria of an Additional Service. So before charging was introduced, what were they?

An optional free service! One which you will have an option to pay for now or opt out of.

JudasPriest

Free to all, or just paying customers? If non-customers didn't have access to this functionality, it was a service provided to people paying Three money, and wasn't therefore all that free at all.

OneADay

JudasPriest wrote: »

Free to all, or just paying customers? If non-customers didn't have access to this functionality, it was a service provided to people paying Three money, and wasn't therefore all that free at all.

What are you on about?

BlinkyM

The point is not if it's optional or none core or anything else they want to say, because these definitions are not mentioned in the relevant parts of the terms and conditions.
The issue is if it conforms to their own definitions of an Add-On or an Additional service and it clearly doesn't - well not until the change comes in on Monday.

JudasPriest

OneADay wrote: »

What are you on about?

Was it free for everyone, or just to paying customers of Three? If the latter, then it's not a particularly free service, is it...