An open note to all mortgage brokers

sured

MortgageMamma wrote:

This thread is becoming negative again. Lets not tread old ground. this is about moving forward. A mutual understanding has been achieved with Kenshaz, time will tell if it works, but as things stand now. let it go. (that is not aimed at anyone in particular). Lets just move on.

.

just what i was thinking, be afraid be very afraid

dunstonh

I will be happy to commit the time needed to get this resolved as it does no-one any favours for the board to be like this.

For those that are new members to the forums, this is not a common event. There are always going to be a difference of opinions on things and very often that's because there is more than one way of doing something. Those of you that have been members of the board for a while and follow the investments/pensions side know that I and Ed often go at it hammer on tongs at each other on various things. However, at the end of it, we say our piece and leave it for you to decide and we move on to the next thread as if nothing happened before (apart from the occasional in joke).

This time round it hasnt happened like that and a poor atmosphere has enveloped the mortgage forum.

Personal attacks on the mortgage advisers, IFAs and tied agents arent nice and those that post here are doing it for free. So accusing them of doing it for money or "grooming" people is not justified. Equally, the advisers, myself included, do have to be less sensitive to that sort of aggression. Its hard. Very hard at times.

My early thoughts on this subject are:

1 - Signatures.

This whole subject of signatures is not that important. I think advisers should have a signature which reaffirms that they are not giving financial advice and lets the poster know what side of the fence they are sitting on. This will protect them and remind any individuals reading that it isnt advice. Adviser responses can be quite specific and easily mistaken for advice if you arent careful.

No links to personal/professional sites should appear in the broker/adviser signature.

2. On what guidance for brokers we can lay on the board for how to behave in a way that won't be seen as touting for business

With the exception of one current poster, I dont think this is a problem either. Any new adviser that has come along with a "message me" type response has been told to stop and they always have. Any abuse of that has seen the mods remove the posts very quickly. You rarely see an abuse of it because nowadays most in the industry know the consequences.

The posts that the advisers give usually do not promote one product or provider, are usually fairly generic and never say "give it to me". Accusations of touting are just wrong. So, whilst individuals are allowed an anti broker view, the advisers should also be respected for what the do and the help they provide for this site.

the site's position on advice

I can understand the wider content of Martins official stance on advice and have no issues with that with one exception.

The threads contain information, sometimes with different views and the pros and cons of various things are presented and nine times out of ten there is enough information in the thread for the individual to decide for themselves. From those that have messaged me in the past, they all find them rather enjoyable to read and a good learning experience. Sod money saving, if people can read those threads with the different views and learn something and see both sides then that is the best thing possible.

However, where I was less happy was where a thread contains bad advice and the individual instigating the thread is ignoring the counter arguments and is indicating that they are going to take action based on the wrong information. The official stance washes your hands of responsibility on the basis that you cannot monitor everything and you are not in the position to judge what is good or bad advice. All quite logical and as you had it checked out, no doubt quite legal. However, I just find this so wrong and out of step with the rest of the site. This person could be following all your money saving tips and knocking a few pounds off here and there and then they could blow thousands of pounds just like that by acting on incorrect information.

This is not a common event so it shouldnt add to the workload. However, where the advisers on the board see such an event occurring, it should be reported and the board should consider it. My solution to that would be a moderator or board guide adding a post to the thread to say that the thread has been reported by someone believed to be a financial adviser stating that the advice in the thread may be inaccurate and that you have no responsibility if they act on the information in the thread and it turns out to be wrong and that they should seek advice from an IFA before they do anything to make sure.

Thats all it needs. The warning doesnt say the information is wrong, it just highlights that it could be and that they should take care. What they do after that is up to them.

On the whole with regards to the last few days events, its a storm in a tea cup and a couple of the threads appear to have been smoke screens for a wider issue related which I believe you can now see. There isnt a need for a heavy handed response.

regularsaver1

Advice can not be given here - so people can not come here for advice. but information from various sources, and then make their own decisions

just as they would have discussions with a couple of brokers, or visit different banks for their savings rates ect

why is the word "advice" appearing in threads when it can not be given here ??

This is not making the board friendly and approachable . Lets all post TOGETHER - regardless of who we are. ????

I see some sense in your post dunstonh but do not fully agree in your part about a financial adviser adding a note to a post that they don't agree with - how demoralising would it be to that poster. This site is for everyone so I don't agree with that. A note shouldn't be added as this is a chat forum so people reading the posts are not having advice anyway, and should see a broker for proper advice

MyUserNamesTaken

MortgageMamma wrote:

This thread is becoming negative again. Lets not tread old ground. this is about moving forward. A mutual understanding has been achieved with Kenshaz, time will tell if it works, but as things stand now. let it go. (that is not aimed at anyone in particular). Lets just move on.

I have, and I feel much better for it.

Sorry to have to disagree with you, MM, but I think a lot of the problems on this board of late come down to one thing and one thing alone - a certain individual's almost obsessive need to jump on any thread on this board to attacking the various mortgage brokers whilst posting snippets of articles written by Martin and links to L&C. He doesn't just do this once in a thread. He does it repeatedly, to the point of totally derailing the thread.

I am not a mortgage broker. I'm a normal, every day run of the mill poster here. I have no interest in promoting or backing either side of this debate. However, having read through the various threads, it is blatantly apparently to me who is to blame for the hostility on this board.

Kenshaz, by all means post your opinions. However, you only need to post them once on a thread. Allow everyone else the same right, regardless of their profession. Also, keep on topic. Stop posting links to L&C in every damn thread you post on, along with quick copy and paste snippets of Martin's article. Having read through your posts, I can honestly say that you come across as some sort of obsessive nutjob. I, for one, don't take anything you post seriously. If anything, your contributions (and I use that word very loosely) do L&C no good whatsoever. After all, look at the person recommending them obsessively.

You, my friend, troll this board. It's time to stop.

To the mortgage brokers: The only way Kenshaz can carry on doing what he is doing is if you reply to him. I would strongly advise (yes, I'm giving advice here!) you all to just ignore him. If you do this, he can only keep on repeating himself. If he does keep repeating the same old crap without anyone responding, he'll end up convincing more and more people that he's nuts. Eventually, no-one will take anything he says seriously.

MortgageMamma

Myusernamestaken

Whilst I agree with what you are saying, Kenshaz has stated above that all this is going to stop, and, no doubt the abuse team will have spoken to him since there have been numerous complaints. What I am asking for here is forgiveness. I have been one of the main people kenshaz chose to attack, because at one point I admitted having gained 3 clients from this site. This might sound weird, but, I practice budhism, and one of the main principles I follow is to forgive and have compassion. Whatever has driven kenshaz to behave the way he has is likely to be nothing to do with the forum itself. Somewhere along the line he is suffering, as we all are.

We all let off steam in our own personal ways. Lets just live and let live. If he causes no more problems there really is no reason to keep dragging him through the mud and making him feel worse than he already does. A truce?

Leon_W

Look Ken

It's not just me and other brokers that think it is you that is the problem.

OK, I think I've said enough on the subject and I'll now let it drop.

Ken, believe me, it is nothing personal. You are probably a lovely bloke who thinks he's doing people a favour, but all I ask is that you give it a rest with the links, they are plainly visible to anyone who wants to read them.

Tell you what, when you need your mortgage doing give us a shout on .......

........ [email]dinamitebroker@hotmail.co.uk....[/email]it's where all the celebs get there mortgages !!!

only kiddin !

MortgageMamma

LOL Leon, is that a deliberate spelling mistake?

MSE_Martin

OK folks. Please can we stop talking about one poster. As MM says lets embrace the fact we're all talking together to try and get this going. Yes of course there's some bad feeling here - yet the point is everyone needs to forget that. This thread is drawing a line under it. It's how it goes from here that counts. I think the situation is understood by all involved.

Dunstonh thank you so much for this.

A couple of points in response.

I do think a common signature thread is important or it causes extra division and argument. A standard signature makes a point and also means less argument over what is acceptible process.

As for 'bad advice'. The problem is it's simply not practicable. There are two paperback books written on this forum a day - and around 600 abuse reports a day. I have a team of one full time and three part time abuse controllers handling it.

However they are not advisors, or even money people, they're job is dealing with abuse. So there is no one to actually adjudicate good or bad advice. It's the nature of the forum... plus I can't take an advisers word for it as i don't know that persons an adviser.

If there's a gross breach that i personally spot i try and involve myself, yet i am not here enough to offer that as a solution. So as 'official policy' i can't offer that as a response of the abuse team. Also to be honest I am semi-stymied on this one by my own insurance policy. So I can't budge.

Of course if someone I know (ie someone i recognisise as a long term poster) PMs me and says 'im worried' i always try and help and will still do so, but i can only offer this as an extreme last resort. And often with work commitments I'm away for a couple of days at a time.

Martin

MyUserNamesTaken

MortgageMamma wrote:

Myusernamestaken

Whilst I agree with what you are saying, Kenshaz has stated above that all this is going to stop, and, no doubt the abuse team will have spoken to him since there have been numerous complaints. What I am asking for here is forgiveness. I have been one of the main people kenshaz chose to attack, because at one point I admitted having gained 3 clients from this site. This might sound weird, but, I practice budhism, and one of the main principles I follow is to forgive and have compassion. Whatever has driven kenshaz to behave the way he has is likely to be nothing to do with the forum itself. Somewhere along the line he is suffering, as we all are.

We all let off steam in our own personal ways. Lets just live and let live. If he causes no more problems there really is no reason to keep dragging him through the mud and making him feel worse than he already does. A truce?

Whilst I can see what you are saying, MM, I also firmly believe that the proof is in the pudding, so to say. Let's see if Ken sticks to his promise. However, I must admit that I don't hold out much hope.

I think the major point that Ken seems to have missed is that Martin's article isn't "advice", as such. It, like everything posted on here, is opinion. Martin even says that what he writes should not be taken as financial advice. It's Martin's opinion based on the research he has been able to do. As stated in the article Ken keeps quoting, Martin does not have the time to assess every single brokerage in the UK, so he purposely stuck to the four biggest ones. The point of his article is to show people one set of options available to them. However, Martin will be the first to admit that it is only one set of options, and that other options are out there. People post on here asking for opinions (not advice), as they want to get a rough idea of their options. It's ok for Ken to post about L&C, as long as he does so in a responsible and reasonable manner (not just cut and pasting bits of articles and claiming that L&C are the be all and end all for all possible mortgage situations). He needs to be able to show an understanding of the company he's recommending, too.

Brokers post here to help people with their options and give opinions on routes to follow. This is never meant to be advice, nor is it done for personal gain. Ken needs to realise that brokers have a place on this board. They offer experience and unbiased opinions (not based on personal gain). It's always good to be given more than one option. If Ken had his way, he'd have us all calling L&C regardless of our various financial situations. He does this because he doesn't seem to see that there is more than one option available to most people.

Leon_W

Hi Mamma

The username was already taken !

Again, only kiddin !

Hey, it's nearly Christmas which is a particularly nice time for brokers to look forward to as it is generally our quietest period, so it's a Merry Christmas to all moneysavers from me.

Eggnog anyone ?


EDIT: After seeing all Mammas Christmas trinkets below it made this post look awfully dull so I have festived this one up somewhat.

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