Please help me. Unfair train fine !!!

noakesc

Wow so much information since I last looked at this thread.

I am sligthly confused by the civil/criminal discussion everyone seems to be having.

I understand people saying that to know this information you would have to be a family member (or extremely close), but I know a fair few peoples names, addresses and DOBs who are just friends. Also the individual could have been prepared to give this information (knowing they could be stopped), most of which could be optained from places like facebook and old diary and so on. I would have thought that a driving license would be the only form of I.D or checks, which would be suitable for this situation.

We have looked at emails and facebook etc, but there is nothing which can prove she was not on the train. But she wasn't on the train and so they cannot prove she was. Surely this therefore could not hold up in court, if it ever got that far. Am I right or wrong?

Any other info I can give you all to help me out?

Thanks,
Charlie

* Also, would they not take a signature of the person on the train, or a photo. That would make sense as they could then always prove who the person was.

halibut2209

A signature means nothing, cos if I wanted to get away with it, I'd give my real name and address, make sure my other half used my card somewhere else, and deliberately give a false signature which I could then use to "prove" that it wasn't me.

wealdroam

noakesc wrote: »

...she didn't withdraw money on this day (we don't think) and therefore cannot prove this as a reason for our appeal.

So you don't think she made a cash withdrawal?

Why not prove that one way or another by getting a statement from her bank?
(as I suggested earlier)

You may be pleasantly surprised.

noakesc

wealdroam wrote: »

So you don't think she made a cash withdrawal?

Why not prove that one way or another by getting a statement from her bank?
(as I suggested earlier)

You may be pleasantly surprised.

Good advice, I will get her to have a look on her internet banking or go into her local branch. Ah, she just said to me she has tried this and there were no withdrawals or card spending.

I have also been looking through her emails and texts and there is a nice discussion about going over the forest with me to walk the dogs at about 3pm. She also has email discussions about going out that evening to her sisters house, to have dinner (and for me to watch the Arsenal vs Barca game ).

I would also like to share an email we had sent to the company and the reply we received.

Email sent:
Dear Sarah,

I'm writing to appeal a fine, that was sent to me on the 4th of March. My brother-in-law rang up that day and spoke to you over the phone, explaining my situation. The fine was for £45 for a train from Doncaster to kings cross station, I never took this train or have ever even been to Doncaster. Over the telephone you informed my brother-in-law for me to email you this situation, explaining that I am appealing this fine and that you will investigate this matter further.

I believe that it is appalling that I have received this initial fine, when I have never even used your services. You informed my brother-in-law that they never asked for photo id, therefore this person could have been anyone. I would like you to investigate and cancel this fine held against my name, I will not be paying it as I am not responsible, having not made this trip or one of a similar nature.

Kind regards,
Caroline .........

The reply we got from another person:

Dear Miss C......,

Please accept my apologies for the delay in my response I have been on annual leave and I am in charge of the UFN affairs. When somebody is issued with an UFN they are checked for any photographic Identification, then their details are passed through an agency called Revenue Protection Support Services to further verify their name and address.
Unfortunately since all protocol was followed you will need to prove it wasn’t you who got onto the train and that you have been a victim of identity theft, otherwise this matter will not be resolved, and will escalate, until the fine has been paid.
To dispute this decision please call either today or Monday after 1pm to discuss further on 01904 633307 and ask to speak to Natalie. Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience.

Kind Regards,

Miss N. Schofield
Unpaid Fares Department
Grand Central railway company LTD


This sounds unbelievable to me, that because they followed protocol (which they didn't), it is now for us to prove otherwise.

Can anyone make any more sense from this?

Thanks again.

* Would also like to state that she doesn't think there is a time on the letter of when she travelled, although she is not certain. We are currently in the process of thinking of exactly what to say to them.

unholyangel

If you need to know exactly what details were given etc could you not make a subject access request under the DPA? However they can charge for this (maximum £10), how much of a fine are we talking? Under the DPA you can also write to the data controller to notify them of any errors and ask they rectify them.

IMO at the end of the day, if its a criminal offense they need to prove it was the OP. If it is a civil matter, they need to prove the "debt" belongs to the OP (well not the op but whoever the OP is posting on behalf of).

Either way i would suggest the burden of proof is on them.

Lokolo

Reply with:

"Unfortunately as it was not me, and I do not have an evil twin, I believe the train inspector did not ask for identification."

bribri_2

OP.
Please go to the consumer action group website and post your problem on their penalty fares thread on public transport. They have ex and possibly even current inspectors who know the law and no doubt can clear up all the terminology and explain the options to you.

p00hsticks

noakesc wrote: »

To dispute this decision please call either today or Monday after 1pm to discuss further on 01904 633307 and ask to speak to Natalie.

Presumably you will be doing this as a matter of urgency if you haven't already ?

squeaky

You'll need to join there if you want to post. Here's a link:-

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/index.php

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?161-Public-transport-%28Trains-tubes-and-buses%29&

DCodd

ryantcb wrote: »

When revenue issue a penalty the have to confirm the identity of the person in question. They do this via databases. The person would of had to give without hesitation their full name date of birth and full address with post code(not easy to make up on the spot). This would then be checked and verified. So assuming these standard check were made then the person in question is either
a)you
b)your girlfriend
c)a close family member
d) an ex partner
e) A work collegue
f) An employer
g) An ex employer
h) a friend
i)a friends partner
j)an ex friend
k) an ex friends partner
etc etc
the chances of it being a complete stranger are 4% at best.
The final possibility is that the whole thing is bogus, when you call to question the letter do you find the number yourself or use the one atop of the letter? It is probably more likely that its a scam and just pishing for every 1000 letters they send out 1% pay without hesitation.

Good luck

Edited for accuracy.