Council house rant....

Wee_Willy_Harris

ILW wrote: »

My point was that as a country we should be encouraging "net" taxpayers, rather than setting up entire systems to reward people choosing lifestyles they cannot afford and expecting others to support them.

How many of us could afford to educate our children? Or to pay for hospital treatment? Or libraries? Or the care of our elderly? That is the point of being a "society".

Wee_Willy_Harris

abbadon3 wrote: »

Yes i agree. But i'm not commenting on any one individual case. If we were then i agree you would need to know all the ins and outs to decide if they are worthy of the help.

But that doesn't change the fact there are thousands of people playing the system does it?

And I'm just pointing out that this doesn't mean that it is a bad system.

crunchyblanket

it means that you cannot reliably state there are thousands playing the system since there is no means of measuring how many people are claiming benefits fraudulently ("that bloke down the pub told me" type hearsay is about the only proof most people require, alas) It also means that we oughtn't cast aspersions on those we observe living in social housing/claiming benefits, making the easy assumption that they are spongers when we have no idea what their situation actually is.

So it does change the scope of the debate inasmuch as if we cannot objectively recognise a benefit cheat, we cannot therefore claim to know that there are 'x' number of them.

I'm not denying there are people playing the system out there. I am, however, decrying the ridiculous hyperbole surrounding this argument. You'd think everyone and his wife was a benefit cheat the way some people harp on about this subject.

tamarto

abbadon3 wrote: »

Oi! No wondering what others points are until you've cleared up your own!

Surely after reading my previous comment you now understand why people get more annoyed at benefit fraud than other types of fraud and will now concede this yes?

People get more annoyed at benefit fraud because of stories in the likes of the Daily Fail.

I myself feel that tax evasion and corporate fraud are far worse than some poor !!!!!! earning a fiver on the side for washing a few windows.

abbadon3

Again. earlier on in the topic there are several posts from me, makign it very clear i do not think all people who are on benefits or in social housing are commiting fraud. That is ridiculous.

But if you think there are not many, many people playing the system then your in denial.

Just because you cannot immediately look at someone and know if they are a benefit fraud or claiming for good reason doesn't mean it isn't happening.

And the system needs oan verhaul. It is too easy to get yourself onto benefits when you don't need them.

My views on this are based on life experiences and what i have seen going on. My opinions are not based on the media hype and right wing facist propaganda.

People do play the system. Alot of people. And it !!!!es people off. The system needs to change.

@WWH - yes, if thousands of people are playing the system then it is a bad system.

A system of welfare should be designed to elevate as many people as possible out of that welfare system as soon as possible. Making people self sufficient should be the main purpose of any welfare system.

Those who have real disabilities which stop them working, or have circumstances that really mean they are unable to look after themselves (old, imobile people for example) should have help available to them and they should be looked after. I completely agree with this sentiment.

But you must accept that allowing the amount of people to claim benefits that we have at the moment is not right, it is not fair and it means people who contribute alot to society end up paying for those who refuse to contribute.

abbadon3

I'm pretty sure the reasoning behind the passionate outcrys against benefit fraud are due to the personal feel people get from it.

When you work hard and have money taken from you to pay for people who won't work hard and are happy to live a lazy life paid for by you. It does annoy people. And of course it annoys people more when they hear stories in newspapers about lazy people claiming loads of money (e.g. the somalian guy with 7 kids living in a multi-million pound mansion - gotta love the sun) rather than hearing some guy ripping off some company that has no effect on you whatsoever.

Again i point you to the example of someone braking in up the road to a house and someone braking into your house. If you feel a personal connection to a crime you will feel more passionate about it. Surely this is common sense?

tamarto

abbadon3 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the reasoning behind the passionate outcrys against benefit fraud are due to the personal feel people get from it.

When you work hard and have money taken from you to pay for people who won't work hard and are happy to live a lazy life paid for by you. It does annoy people. And of course it annoys people more when they hear stories in newspapers about lazy people claiming loads of money (e.g. the somalian guy with 7 kids living in a multi-million pound mansion - gotta love the sun) rather than hearing some guy ripping off some company that has no effect on you whatsoever.

Again i point you to the example of someone braking in up the road to a house and someone braking into your house. If you feel a personal connection to a crime you will feel more passionate about it. Surely this is common sense?

Do you really think tax evasion costs the taxpayer nothing? Do you think corporate fraud has no effect on you? bless

Wee_Willy_Harris

abbadon3 wrote: »

@
Those who have real disabilities which stop them working, or have circumstances that really mean they are unable to look after themselves (old, imobile people for example) should have help available to them and they should be looked after. I completely agree with this sentiment.

But you must accept that allowing the amount of people to claim benefits that we have at the moment is not right, it is not fair and it means people who contribute alot to society end up paying for those who refuse to contribute.

But that's what we have. If you are a single person, with no health issues, claiming benefits, you will get just about enough to survive. Even working just 1 8 hour day at NMW would all but match it. Those who get extra help are the ones who, as you rightly say, are unable to look after themselves. That group includes children, as it should.

As for encouraging self reliance? I'm all for it. And social housing, with it's affordable rents and high levels of security of tenure, does just that. However, even on this thread, there are some who see affordable rents as a bad thing, part of the system of abuse. So it's difficult to know what, other than bashing the poor, people want!

abbadon3

Clearly you missed my point.

My point isn't actualy what the knock on effects of different frauds are on people. It is the feeling of connection people have with different types of fraud. And benefit fraud is one that is easy for people to feel connected with.

I'm wondering if anyone on this forum is actualy capable of replying to what is written or whether everyone just loves to try and down-tred any view that differs from there own...hmm

Btw love the patronising touch with the "bless" on the end - hahaha

The assumption on the internet that your better than someone is very, very sad.

Wee_Willy_Harris

abbadon3 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the reasoning behind the passionate outcrys against benefit fraud are due to the personal feel people get from it.

When you work hard and have money taken from you to pay for people who won't work hard and are happy to live a lazy life paid for by you. It does annoy people. And of course it annoys people more when they hear stories in newspapers about lazy people claiming loads of money (e.g. the somalian guy with 7 kids living in a multi-million pound mansion - gotta love the sun) rather than hearing some guy ripping off some company that has no effect on you whatsoever.

Again i point you to the example of someone braking in up the road to a house and someone braking into your house. If you feel a personal connection to a crime you will feel more passionate about it. Surely this is common sense?

But why do YOU feel this "personal connection" to benefit claimants? Are you the classic bitter ex-smoker who turns into a non-smoking zealot? Is it because you used to claim your benefits but, now that you don't, you don't see why anyone else should? Perhaps you got caught on the fiddle and don't want anyone else to get away with it if you got caught?