4 year old insomnia?? At my wits end!!

balletshoes

I really feel for you OP (and your neighbour too), I love my sleep and this would be a nightmare scenario for me.

We played musical beds in our house for a couple of years on and off, basically as long as we were all in a bed and sleeping, we never really got precious about who was sleeping where when my DD was little.
Its different if your DD doesn't sleep no matter which room she's in though - but does she settle down better and in less time when she's in her makeshift bed next to you? If she does, I agree that I'd just have a bed already made for her next to yours, but with a blow-up mattress and a sleeping bag for example, so it doesn't look or feel like a proper bed. That way your DD can pop in it without a lot of fuss and without you having to make up the bed in the middle of the night, and hopefully it will allow both of you to settle in less time and get more sleep of a night. If your DD still needs to whisper to her cuddlies and that disturbs you, get some earplugs for yourself for when she's next to you.

I do also think that when she starts proper school, she will get more tired at the end of the school day, it takes a lot out of kids when they first start going to school all day 5 days a week. Hopefully this will mean she gets into a deeper and longer sleep.

puddy

if possible try to use a different place to do the 4 minutes time out, as she will be associating her bedroom with the place where she goes to get told off and where she stays because she has been naughty

also, have you tried night time relaxation like baby massage, nice for both of you. im not suggesting this will 'solve' the problem but it may calm her and put her in a positive frame of mind for the bedroom

Lunar_Eclipse

headcrash27 wrote: »

During the day if she has a tantrum like that she would be put in her room with her stairgate onfor 4 minutes and then made to apologise, if she doesn't do this or the tantrum continues she goes back in her room.

I've thought long and hard about writing this because I know how hard it is to be a parent, that we all try our very best and thus I do not want to cause you any upset concerning anything you do in this area. However, I think what you have written above has the potential to be a (major) part of the issue. Do you have another neutral area in your home that could be used as a reflective place for discipline? A communal living area of any sort?

Your daughter might not feel that her bedroom is a haven of calm and a positive place to be, because of how it is sometimes used during the day. Thus when she wakes up at night, she might be experiencing feelings associated with being naughty and comes to you to seek reassurance that all is well (basically that you love her.) Unfortunately she might be highly stressed (ie shouting and crying) before she does this, simply because she re-enacts her poor daytime behaviour, how she feels having been told off and/or the negative behaviour that gets your attention. Tricky cycle, especially for a 4 year old to manage.

Whether or not this is part of the issue, I think it would be more positive if her bedroom wasn't used in this way. I do hope this has come across in the helpful way it was intended and not in a judgmental manner.:)

feclmum

Have you tried playing childrens meditation cds when she is going to sleep, they help relax the mind and my children say they give them nice dreams.I also play them if they do wake up in the night,worth a try.
Relax kids website used to have a few free taster downloads

Fuzzy_Duck

SkintGypsy wrote: »

Perhaps a nice pair of earplugs for neighbour might help. You can ignore kids screaming if they aren't yours. If they are, not so much, although I do tend to wear mine if husband is on baby duty.

I find the opposite is true. Screaming kids give me a migraine and if I'm ever in a situation where I can't escape them, and their screaming is particularly grating, I get panic attacks. On the other hand the parents seem to deal rather well with it- which makes sense really as they must be used to it.

I agree 100% with JodyBPM, this seems to be a behavioural issue so you really do need to be firm and put a stop to her sleeping in your room. I know you said they weren't much help last time but give CAMHS another try- it does sound like you've been struggling for a long time and you really need to get all the help you're entitled to.

Jojo, I appreciate that the neighbour shouting isn't going to help but why should they put up with a four year old (we're not talking a baby here) screaming every night? Not getting at OP but OP chose to have a child- the poor neighbour didn't. Lack of sleep would make anyone cranky. I think it's great that OP has been apologetic in this matter, as it shows the neighbour that she is a responsible parent trying her hardest to get her child to sleep- this certainly would not have been the case if she'd told the neighbour to p*** off.

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

Yes, but if, as you say, the OP has to be firm, then what other response can there be if the neighbour continues to whinge?

I dislike the noise of a screeching child intensely. But I would never have dreamed of making the mother's life worse by putting them under pressure to give in, just in the hope that the child shuts up.

Especially as the child is capable of reasoning and arguing back about why it can't possibly work - the child is capable of understanding that NO means NO and BED means BED. Which entails crying. I'd actually be happier that they were not pandering to a 4 year old's whims, as the hope would be that it stops before the age of 12. And believe me, I know of an 11 year old who still sleeps in bed with her mother every single night because she screeches the place down if she can't have Mummy. Her 6 year old sister sleeps in her bedroom alone, and the other kids at high school avoid her because they think she's over attached to her mum in what was relayed to me 'as a creepy, she wishes she was still in nappies with a bottle way'.

Mupette

can you not put a blow up bed up, but....... not have it on display, (and if room allows)

you want dd to stay and sleep in her room, so next time she comes in to yours tell her to go back, but tell her you will come with her, get her used to staying there and she is not alone.

dream catcher is a good one

when ds had nightmares and couldn't sleep i told him an escape story..... and it is true, as in i did suffer and this is what i did.

When i was little and had bad dreams, i used to escape them, by making my magic wings flap so i could fly away from scary monsters [or insert whatever the bad dream is about]

once i learnt i could fly away from them, i was no longer scared..


now when i told ds this, he had a think and a ponder, (think back to buzz lightyear the first time round) and i suggested if he had magic wings like buzz he could fly away too.

worked a treat nigtmares became a rarety.

Fuzzy_Duck

Jojo_the_Tightfisted wrote: »

Yes, but if, as you say, the OP has to be firm, then what other response can there be if the neighbour continues to whinge?

I dislike the noise of a screeching child intensely. But I would never have dreamed of making the mother's life worse by putting them under pressure to give in, just in the hope that the child shuts up.

Especially as the child is capable of reasoning and arguing back about why it can't possibly work - the child is capable of understanding that NO means NO and BED means BED. Which entails crying. I'd actually be happier that they were not pandering to a 4 year old's whims, as the hope would be that it stops before the age of 12. And believe me, I know of an 11 year old who still sleeps in bed with her mother every single night because she screeches the place down if she can't have Mummy. Her 6 year old sister sleeps in her bedroom alone, and the other kids at high school avoid her because they think she's over attached to her mum in what was relayed to me 'as a creepy, she wishes she was still in nappies with a bottle way'.

If the neighbour has had an apology and knows the situation then fair enough, it'll be incredibly unfair of them to continue whinging. However from what OP has said the neighbour has actually been quite understanding about it, compared to another recent thread where the neighbours were banging on the door shouting at the child to 'shut up'.

That said communication is the key- hopefully if OP continues to be apologetic and gives the neighbour some warning, i.e. "we're going to try this for a few days to see how it goes, I'm really sorry if you hear any noise" she will be understanding, especially as she is a mother herself. That would give OP a bit more wriggle room when it comes to trying out some of the ideas here, as daughter will probably be unsettled for a while when getting used to a new routine.

Spendless

headcrash27 wrote: »

Sorry to hear you have had the same problems. Can i ask if you ever went to the GP about it? Also did it affect his schooling or did you find he coped ok? We have a kingsize bed too but i can't stand being squashed in with her fidgeting and tossing and turning for hours on end, hence why we end up making her up a bed on the floor. She doesn't drink sugary drinks as she's really fussy and only likes milk and water. She was referred to CAHMS a while ago as she has some behavioural problems, so i'm considering giving them a call as i still have their number, however they weren't much help last time so not sure how much help they will be able to give.

I went to my HV who gave me a booklet about sleep problems in older children, but it was always more of an issue to me that he didn't want to go to sleep in the first place, rather than he came in in the middle of the night, cos frequently we didn't spot he was there till morning. No, it never affected his schooling, where he has done extremely well. He is just a child that needs less sleep, which is his argument for wanting a later bedtime.
He too, dislikes the dark, and wants the light on, which IMO is prolonging our problem, as it is too light for him to sleep. What about putting the night-light on a timer so it goes off after x time?

DS also suffered from night terrors, and I ntoiced a pattern that they were more likely if he'd gone to sleep agitated, which he often was due to the battles over bedtime. I have had some good experince of using classical music to get my son to sleep. Perhaos give that a go, to see if she's more settled when she falls asleep it stops the night-time wanderings.

Though I'd forgotten till Lunar Eclipse said, I too was told not to make the bedroom a 'punishment' place, at least not till they are a bit older.

Good luck.:)

amandada

Ask your HV if there's a sleep clinic locally, and ask for a referral if there is.

If you have a radio which you could put in her room, tune it to Classic FM and keep it on very low, all night-there's no speech and the music is gently enough that if she wakens, it's quite a soothing sound, rather than waking up to hear "house" noises. Has to be worth a try.

Is your daughter actually physically tired when she goes to bed? I know it seems a bit of an obvious question, but some children do need less sleep than others. My ds is 8 and we have to make he is very well exercised during the day (he's not a dog, honest!) or he really struggles to sleep at night.
This is all obvious stuff, but what's her bedtime routine like? I know the problem is her wakening during the night, but if she goes to sleep after a warm bath then a story snuggled up in bed (no TVs in bedrooms here!) then it might let her wind down enough and clear her head enough to get a decent sleep.
Apologies if it sounds like I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but I know it can be easy to lose sight of the obvious when you're struggling with something like this