MMR & autism Not just bad science but also falsified

poet123

Nicki wrote: »

You might find being questioned or challenged on the issue of herd immunity difficult, but IMO it was not done distastefully. You also conflated several posters challenging you on this, some in much more trenchant terms than I did, and decided to hone in on my argument because you could make a cheap point at the expense of my child's disability.

There has been nastiness on the last few pages, but most of it has come from your quarter. I am genuinely shocked that you apparently work with families such as my own and have no insight at all into the impact of blaming them for their child's condition. However I am going to leave this thread now as life is too short to waste debating with someone of your kind.

Maybe I homed in on your agenda and that is what you find too close to home.

The nastiness started with your suggestion as shown above I am happy for my comments to be read and judged.

I do not, and have never, blamed any parent for their childs condition. Nor do I blame any parent for choosing not to vaccinate. You however do attach blame to those who have an opinion which differs from your own.

You weighed in last night with a personal attack on me, and again tonight via my child. Those posts are still in situ. They were both uncalled for, and elicited a response from me ( mirroring your own hypothesis) which you could not handle.

You do not debate this subject you use insult to get across your pov, it rarely works, and is always seen by others for what it is.

I work with children with autism, and the loving parents who care for them and I resent your insults re my profession, and the distortion of my comments for your own ends.

donteatthat

verysillyguy06 wrote: »

No complications were caught from the illnesses either

Ridiculous. Not only because you don't "catch" complications, but are you suggesting that in Steiner communities no-one ever was vaccinated nor acquired those infections, or had contact with the wider general public?

poet123

donteatthat wrote: »

Ridiculous. Not only because you don't "catch" complications, but are you suggesting that in Steiner communities no-one ever was vaccinated nor acquired those infections, or had contact with the wider general public?

Leaving aside your usage correction (English is not VSG's first language as I recall;)) it is unlikely many in Steimer communities do vaccinate as they believe in natural prevention and natural immunity. Not impossible of course, but unlikely.

tooldle

I would like to add my experience here. As a child I had measles, I don't remember it well so assume it was reasonably mild. Fast forward ten years and I become ill, eventually being diagnosed with a lung disease. I have large areas of scaring to my lungs.
My consultant cannot give a definite reason as to how this came about but thinks it is likely a result of the meseales infection.
My maternal grandmother is blind in one eye. I recently discovered that this was a direct result of meseales.
I think a large part of the problem is that the impact of a childhood illness is not always immediately apparent.
I now find myself extremely vunerable. Other people pass their mild illnesses on to me, I become very ill sometime requiring hospital treatment.
In answer to the question earlier Chicken Pox can kill but it is extremely rare.
I also work in research with biomedical scientists and doctors. I would agree with the earlier statement that doctor does not equal scientist. Medicine degrees do not include an element of research training. Medics can and do take higher research degrees. Most I have spoken to find it significantly harder than their scientifically qualified colleagues. Horese for courses I guess.

poet123

tooldle wrote: »

I would like to add my experience here. As a child I had measles, I don't remember it well so assume it was reasonably mild. Fast forward ten years and I become ill, eventually being diagnosed with a lung disease. I have large areas of scaring to my lungs.
My consultant cannot give a definite reason as to how this came about but thinks it is likely a result of the meseales infection.
My maternal grandmother is blind in one eye. I recently discovered that this was a direct result of meseales.
I think a large part of the problem is that the impact of a childhood illness is not always immediately apparent.
I now find myself extremely vunerable. Other people pass their mild illnesses on to me, I become very ill sometime requiring hospital treatment.
In answer to the question earlier Chicken Pox can kill but it is extremely rare.
I also work in research with biomedical scientists and doctors. I would agree with the earlier statement that doctor does not equal scientist. Medicine degrees do not include an element of research training. Medics can and do take higher research degrees. Most I have spoken to find it significantly harder than their scientifically qualified colleagues. Horese for courses I guess.

Not according to these figures


Chickenpox is typically a benign, self-limited disease, but serious complications can arise. About 14,000 people are hospitalized because of chicken pox and approximately 100 people die of chickenpox every year. The risk of complications is highest in people with compromised immune systems, newborns, and adults

They are considerably higher than Measles stats.

Nicki

poet123 wrote: »

You weighed in last night with a personal attack on me, and again tonight via my child. Those posts are still in situ. They were both uncalled for, and elicited a response from me ( mirroring your own hypothesis) which you could not handle.

You do not debate this subject you use insult to get across your pov, it rarely works, and is always seen by others for what it is.

I work with children with autism, and the loving parents who care for them and I resent your insults re my profession, and the distortion of my comments for your own ends.

All my posts remain on this thread unedited, and anyone reading them can see that I have made no personal attack on you. On Tuesday night I said that your legal analysis of the US cases was flawed. That is a fact not a personal attack of any kind. Should I not have mentioned it and let your distorted view go unchallenged lest it hurt your feelings that you misunderstand how the legal system works?

Last night I posted about the consequences for immune-compromised children of contact with a child with measles, and the fact that some children who had caused those consequences could find that a burden to carry. Again not a personal attack but my opinion based on my experience of observing how the classmates of some immune-compromised children I know personally react. Your reaction by suggesting that I imagine I had caused my child's disability was vastly disproportionate, and uncalled for, as posters other than myself have also pointed out.

You may resent me saying that it doesn't reflect well on you as a special ed teacher to react in the way you did, but that is my opinion still. You are incredibly over sensitive to any challenge to your viewpoint. I have friends in real life who haven't vaccinated and we have debated the same points as have been aired on here. Not one of them has reacted in the way that you have done and the conversation has been civil at all times, and we've remained good friends afterwards, who happen to disagree on that point. The fact that you are unable to brook any criticism of your analysis or any challenge of your statements, and confront parents who have made a different decision to you with bald accusations that they have or may have damaged their child shows quite clearly that you are
not happy for each parent to make their own choice about these issues,
but rather that you force your own viewpoint on all, and can't tolerate an open discussion of the issues, which like it or not does include a consideration of our wider responsibility as adults to all children, not just our own.

tooldle

Poet 123 I am not going to get drawn into a debate with you. I made no comparission with other illnesses but mearly stated a fact.

poet123

Nicki wrote: »

All my posts remain on this thread unedited, and anyone reading them can see that I have made no personal attack on you. On Tuesday night I said that your legal analysis of the US cases was flawed. That is a fact not a personal attack of any kind. Should I not have mentioned it and let your distorted view go unchallenged lest it hurt your feelings that you misunderstand how the legal system works?

Last night I posted about the consequences for immune-compromised children of contact with a child with measles, and the fact that some children who had caused those consequences could find that a burden to carry. Again not a personal attack but my opinion based on my experience of observing how the classmates of some immune-compromised children I know personally react. Your reaction by suggesting that I imagine I had caused my child's disability was vastly disproportionate, and uncalled for, as posters other than myself have also pointed out.

You may resent me saying that it doesn't reflect well on you as a special ed teacher to react in the way you did, but that is my opinion still. You are incredibly over sensitive to any challenge to your viewpoint. I have friends in real life who haven't vaccinated and we have debated the same points as have been aired on here. Not one of them has reacted in the way that you have done and the conversation has been civil at all times, and we've remained good friends afterwards, who happen to disagree on that point. The fact that you are unable to brook any criticism of your analysis or any challenge of your statements, and confront parents who have made a different decision to you with bald accusations that they have or may have damaged their child shows quite clearly that you are
not happy for each parent to make their own choice about these issues,
but rather that you force your own viewpoint on all, and can't tolerate an open discussion of the issues, which like it or not does include a consideration of our wider responsibility as adults to all children, not just our own.

As you say your posts are there to be read.

You turned a general debate into a personal issue, and worse, directed at my child, when you made the remarks about the pyschological trauma of realising they had caused the death of a peer, or caused a baby to be born damaged because they had not been vaccinated.

You write emotive and wholly unlikely scenarios and misconstrue my remarks by stating I dont care a jot etc etc. And yet when I ask a reasonable question based on a similar unproven scenario you take issue with it because it concerns your child.

I will remind you that I had no knowledge of the fact your child was autistic until you told me earler in the thread.

I am not sure how yoiu can consider it a civil conversation to have with friends if you accuse them and their children of what you accused me and mine of...but then I suspect you dont quite put it in that way in rl.

Nor did I say that you imagine yourself to be guilty (how can that be true when you immunised another child?)

I said that if in years to come would you feel guilt if the MMR was proven to be a cause of disabilty or would you, as I would with my stance, still be content that you had acted as you saw fit at the time? I further stated that I believed we all did what we considered the best for our child and that as long as we had acted in good faith we had no cause for guilt.

That was my take on it, but you seem to be saying I should not even have mentioned your child, yet you can mention mine with impunity. How does that work?

This was a direct turnaround of your asking me if I would feel guilt if my child "killed" another child because I had chosen not to vaccinate. And you state that was a "reasonable" question:(

I made a choice, you made a choice, you baldly told me that my choice could pyschologically damage my child, but I am the one who is forcing my veiwpoint on others

:rotfl:

None of my comments in any thread on this subject have been designed to do anything other than present my reasons for taking the decision I did. To be frank, I don't care who vaccinates and who does not, it does not affect me, and has not affected me, so why would I try to influence others?

Your comments and those of other posters are designed to show me the error of my ways, and that is fine if that is what you need to do. However, never before has some one stooped so low as you have with such a nasty little hypothesis.

Re my professional role, there is much I could say, but happily I feel no need to justify myself to you in that manner. Suffice to say that the key to working with parents and children is tolerance, understanding and kindness, and using differences in a positive way. I am not sure you will understand that given your comments here.

Re teh US legal system, and the cases cited, I may not understand the nuances of the system but I do understand that when a summary says; (and I paraphrase because the link is further up the thread)

The claimants have proved causation is due to MMR

That it means they are satisfied to the required level of proof (whatever that is accepted as) that the child was damaged by that vaccine. You seem not to understand this or be able to accept this, why is that?

My whole contention is that there are still issues with vaccination that need addressing and that these court cases show that, presumably you don't agree? Fine, this is a forum that happens all the time, but personal attack is never the way to debate.

I think your last few paragraphs actually apply rather more to to yourself than they do to me, and so I wont waste time re writing them, they say it pretty well

poet123

tooldle wrote: »

Poet 123 I am not going to get drawn into a debate with you. I made no comparission with other illnesses but mearly stated a fact.

You stated that few people die from Chicken pox, that is not a fact.

Nicki

I will repeat again I made no personal attacks on you and yours. If you can find one on this thread of anywhere on MSE, then report it to abuse with my blessing.

I have disagreed with both you and VSG on the points you have made, but only you have chosen to take it as a personal issue. I still do not consider pointing out that an unvaccinated child could infect others more at risk to be either a nasty hypothesis or a personal attack. It is rather a major reason why vaccination is a keystone of public health. If you aren't prepared to accept it as a possibility, then you haven't considered all the issues in the debate.


As for not knowing my child was autistic, I mentioned that on several posts i've made in this thread, which you have been reading and posting on from the start, the first time several days ago.