MMR & autism Not just bad science but also falsified

poet123

donteatthat wrote: »

Does chicken pox have the same set of complications? Please qualify that and not with law suits. The complications of chicken pox are less serious than for measles, mumps and rubella, which can cause horrific complications in immunosupressed people, including deafness, birth defects and death. Hepatitis A is like food poisoning in its mode of spread and also not usually serious. Hepatitis B is spread by blood, saliva or sexual contact so is usually not of concern to people working outside healthcare, which is why vaccination is routine if you work in healthcare, and you must seroconvert or show signs of seroconversion in order to continue in your job.
Similarly, flu vaccines are given to those who are at risk of developing serious complications from infection and that includes people who have diabetes and asthma.
As I said before, mass vaccination programs are not just about protecting yourself/your own kids. They are also about preventing spread of infection so that those at risk of catching a disease and suffering the adverse complications are not exposed to it in the first place. It is all very well feeling proud that your own kids only caught a "mild" form of the disease and using that to back up your own justification that it was right not to include them in the vaccination program as they have such a strong immunity whilst the child in remission from leukaemia in their class catches it and becomes infertile.
I'm not sure that until relatively recently there was a vaccine for chicken pox though.

http://dermatology.about.com/cs/chickenpox/a/chickencomp.htm

This and the other links seem to suggest otherwise, it says;

Chickenpox is typically a benign, self-limited disease, but serious complications can arise. About 14,000 people are hospitalized because of chicken pox and approximately 100 people die of chickenpox every year. The risk of complications is highest in people with compromised immune systems, newborns, and adults

and

Bacterial Infection
The most common complication of chickenpox is secondary bacterial infection of the chickenpox lesions. The bacteria most likely to cause infection are Staphylococcus aureus and Streptococcus pyogenes. The bacteria most commonly cause infections such as impetigo, furunculosis, cellulitis, erysipelas, and lymphadenitis. These infections are superficial, but there is a risk of the bacteria invading the bloodstream and causing bacteremia. People who develop bacteremia are at risk of developing bacterial pneumonia, meningitis, arthritis, osteomyelitis, sepsis, shock, and death. Chickenpox lesions that are secondarily infected should be treated with antibiotics.



Neurologic Complications
The second most common complication of chickenpox involves the neurological system. One of these disorders is called acute cerebellar ataxia which causes progressive irritability, difficulty walking, difficulty with vision, and speech disturbances that persist for days or weeks but normally clear completely over time. Another neurologic complication is varicella meningoencephalitis which causes sudden but transient delirium, seizures, headache, sensitivity to light, and neck pain. These symptoms usually resolve after 24 to 72 hours.
Respiratory Complications
The leading cause of varicella-related morbidity and mortality in adults, pregnant women, and people with compromised immune systems is varicella pneumonia. Approximately 1 in 400 adults who develop chickenpox are hospitalized for varicella pneumonia. Varicella pneumonia is caused by the spread of the virus in the bloodstream to the lungs. Risk factors for developing this complication include:



Re the timeline this shows the chicken pox vaccine was actually available before the MMR.



How long has chickenpox vaccine been available?

The first chickenpox vaccine was licensed by the Food and Drug Administration in 1995 and is widely available in private doctors’ offices and public health clinics. A combination measles, mumps, rubella, and varicella (MMRV) vaccine was licensed in the United States in 2005 for use among healthy children aged 12 months-12 years.


A full ten years earlier in fact. So given all those stats why do we not mass vaccinate against chicken pox?

Nicki

:money:

poet123 wrote: »

I was simply reversing the question that had been asked of me (with the same attendant implications) and the the lack of sensitivity of such a suggestion was afforded a robust defence by the questioner.

Are there two rules?

No question of the sort was asked of you by me. I am fairly shocked if you are in fact a special ed teacher as you imply in some of your posts, as your attitude to parents is odious.

For the record, you posted an I'm all right Jack, the worst that happened to my kids was a mild illness post. The point I made was that possibly that wouldn't be the worst that happened to them if they inadvertently caused serious or fatal harm to another human as some people would find that a burden to live with. Though I guess that mind depend on their upbringing.

For what its worth:

1 there is no peer reviewed replicatablr scientific evidence that the mmr causes autism

2 all attempts to research the link scientifically, with the exception of the flawed Wakefield research, have found their to be no link

3 on an individual case, my dd's autism is demonstrably not linked to her mmr,

So NO I did not cause her autism by having her vaccinated and I have no guilt in having done so, as demonstrated by the fact that her younger brother was vaccinated recently too.

But yes, as I am sure you are well aware by virtue of your job, there are a plethora of theories as to what causes autism, and every time one is published I think all parents examine what they have done and wonder whether they have done the right thing. Which is what you are trying to exploit here to deflect attention away from the fact that your position is deeply flawed.

verysillyguy06

If it would be deeply flawed, the US would not be paying out....

donteatthat

That has still not shown me that the complications of varicella-zoster are as debilitating as measles, mumps or rubella I'm afraid.

poet123

melancholly wrote: »

i'm not trying to suggest two rules and i'm not trying to defend anyone else's posts. just putting over my opinion that it's a very difficult subject to broach and is probably best avoided as it makes an emotive subject worse. just my opinion, hence i tried to phrase it as delicately as possible since tone can't be interpreted and for anyone else posting, it could be a slippery slope.... hope that makes sense.

i bet we all wish we could make rules for forums...

It does make sense but it is an emotive subject for all concerned, and when one makes an accusation of guilt for one viewpoint one should not surprised if that is turned back on oneself.

One reason why I never suggest guilt to anyone, my motto is I made my decision, you made yours, I respect that choice and your reasons, respect mine. I think you will find sentiment expressed further up the thread. However, if that courtesy is not accorded then I will return the compliment.;)

donteatthat

verysillyguy06 wrote: »

I know hundreds of people that have not vaccinated their children....most of the Steiner Communities do not vaccinate

And that tells you what? That no-one ever catches the infection from them?

poet123

Nicki wrote: »

:money:

No question of the sort was asked of you by me. I am fairly shocked if you are in fact a special ed teacher as you imply in some of your posts, as your attitude to parents is odious.

For the record, you posted an I'm all right Jack, the worst that happened to my kids was a mild illness post. The point I made was that possibly that wouldn't be the worst that happened to them if they inadvertently caused serious or fatal harm to another human as some people would find that a burden to live with. Though I guess that mind depend on their upbringing.

For what its worth:

1 there is no peer reviewed replicatablr scientific evidence that the mmr causes autism

2 all attempts to research the link scientifically, with the exception of the flawed Wakefield research, have found their to be no link

3 on an individual case, my dd's autism is demonstrably not linked to her mmr,

So NO I did not cause her autism by having her vaccinated and I have no guilt in having done so, as demonstrated by the fact that her younger brother was vaccinated recently too.

But yes, as I am sure you are well aware by virtue of your job, there are a plethora of theories as to what causes autism, and every time one is published I think all parents examine what they have done and wonder whether they have done the right thing. Which is what you are trying to exploit here to deflect attention away from the fact that your position is deeply flawed.

Your posts are full of quite nasty little jibes, that does not further debate. I found your suggestion that my child should or would incur trauma because he killed a peer or was responsible for the death or disability of a teachers baby quite distasteful. You cannot take the moral high ground when you post such nastiness.

Nor do you read my posts. I said if in the future it was proven etc etc....a hypothetical question, similar to the one you posed.;)

poet123

donteatthat wrote: »

That has still not shown me that the complications of varicella-zoster are as debilitating as measles, mumps or rubella I'm afraid.

As you wish, but are the complications worse than death? of which there are an irrefutably higher number from Chicken pox than measles.

verysillyguy06

donteatthat wrote: »

And that tells you what? That no-one ever catches the infection from them?

No complications were caught from the illnesses either

Nicki

poet123 wrote: »

Your posts are full of quite nasty little jibes, that does not further debate. I found your suggestion that my child should or would incur trauma because he killed a peer or was responsible for the death or disability of a teachers baby quite distasteful. You cannot take the moral high ground when you post such nastiness.

Nor do you read my posts. I said if in the future it was proven etc etc....a hypothetical question, similar to the one you posed.;)

You might find being questioned or challenged on the issue of herd immunity difficult, but IMO it was not done distastefully. You also conflated several posters challenging you on this, some in much more trenchant terms than I did, and decided to hone in on my argument because you could make a cheap point at the expense of my child's disability.

There has been nastiness on the last few pages, but most of it has come from your quarter. I am genuinely shocked that you apparently work with families such as my own and have no insight at all into the impact of blaming them for their child's condition. However I am going to leave this thread now as life is too short to waste debating with someone of your kind.