MMR & autism Not just bad science but also falsified

ford_prefect_3

Nicki wrote: »

Quote button now not working at all.

All I know about ITP is what I've read tonight, but ford prefect's post seems alarmist if it is true that 70% of children will recover completely within 6 months with no treatment, and that of the remaining 30% 1/3 will recover completely thereafter and a further 1/3 will only have mild symptoms. So that makes about a dozen children in a sample of four million who will have this complication longer term i'm afraid that still sounds to me like odds worth running for the greater good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiopathic_thrombocytopenic_purpura

Not wanting to point out the blindingly obvious but you did post the link yourself to the increased risk of ADR's from MMR which does indeed include ITP.

I would say its more alarmist to stick your head in the sand and go la la la than it is to avail yourself of the facts, having had a child who had ITP (but not through vaccination I might add) I can say with some authority its not alarmist.

ITP is only one of many reported side effects but given its incidence of 1 in 25,000 (which in population stats is high) and your pronouncements on MMR safety how come where unaware of the subject matter?

Personally speaking as someone who works in a related field, if I was going to make pronouncements on the safety of something on the good old interwebs I would make sure all my ducks where lined up and accounted for.

ford_prefect_3

plumpmouse wrote: »

So it protected your son whilst in the womb.

Is it adults who aren't bothering to protect themselves from the disease or parents refusing to vaccinate their children?

Its the adults refusing to protect themselves.

If your a woman planning to have children is it your responsibility to protect yourself from German measles to protect your future progeny or do you leave it up to the herd immunity provided by others?

verysillyguy06

donteatthat wrote: »

Ridiculous. Not only because you don't "catch" complications, but are you suggesting that in Steiner communities no-one ever was vaccinated nor acquired those infections, or had contact with the wider general public?

I did post ealier that we had 'measles' parties ...many had most or all of the childhood illnesses and as they ofetn attend Steiner schools the contact with non-vaccinated children can be minimal. I did not claim anywhere that they have no contact. It is just interesting and still happening. Just to give a bit of open information for the others side

ford_prefect_3

Nicki wrote: »

Quote button still not working!

Adverse drug reaction reports are SUSPECTED side effects of drugs ranging in seriousness from mild to severe. As this link makes clear a reported ADR does not mean there is in fact a link between the drug/vaccine and the reported side effect, it is merely an indication that the possibility of a link should be researched.

http://www.mhra.gov.uk/Safetyinformation/Reportingsafetyproblems/Reportingsuspectedadversedrugreactions/Patientreporting/index.htm

The yellow card reporting system is there to collect data and to make decisions on safety, efficacy and usability of a drug.

When a drug is released to market it has been tested but on a population size which when compared to the targeted user base is minimal, the yellow card system acts as one massive data gathering exercise on a much larger population cohort.

From that data pronouncements on the safety and risk of drugs can be made.

The advantage of this reporting method is that it does catch major ADR's not seen in the pre release testing population. It works on a simple scoring system, the more reports of a particular ADR the higher up the list it goes.

Nicki

I don't think I in any way misrepresented the data on ITP and MMR. The link which I posted said that the incidence was "low"' not that in population terms it was high.

I don't think you will find that I have posted anywhere that there are no possible side effects to MMR. There are possible side effects to just about everything in life. My own son was allergic to breast milk, and the side effects of that on him were profound and potentially life threatening!

What I have said, and still believe, is that I do not believe that a scientific link between mmr and autism has been proven, and that furthermore, though all vaccinations have some potential side effects it is my opinion that the benefits to society of the MMR far outweigh any risks to the normal healthy child. I have always stated quite clearly on this thread that there are some children for who, the MMR is medically contra-indicated and have never suggested that those children should be vaccinated.

I do think it does society a great disservice to whip up hysteria about vaccination in the absence of scientific evidence, and it is my personal belief that vaccination programmes in general (not just MMR) are the single greatest cause of the significant fall in infant mortality in developed countries since their introduction.

verysillyguy06

Nicki and Poet:

Thank you both very much for being so 'stubborn' in returning to the topic and not be affected by each others right or wrongly perceived 'swipes'


For the record: I was feeling a bit twitchy, Nicky, about the example for the child without vaccination and that is why I posted what I did but then I felt that if my child would be relying on the 'herd' immunity I could have felt offended and hurt at some of the comments as well... I calmed down then but I can understand poet feeling 'anxious' about it...


Cannot comment about the other comment as I would prefer you both staying on topic as this is fascinating and I dont want to be 'piggy' in the middle :eek::A

conradmum

poet123 wrote: »

http://www.robertfkennedyjr.com/articles/2005_june_16.html

This is an account of a secret meeting by Robert Kennedy, it makes interesting reading too.

Re adverse reactions these are the stats;
From July 1990 thro' April 1994, 5799 ADRs following MMR vaccination were reported to US Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS); including 3063 cases requiring emergency medical treatment, 616 hospitalisations, 309 who did not recover, 54 children left disabled and 30 deaths. Due to massive underreporting these are considered only 10-15% of the total number of ADRs (6)

They seem to be quite clear.

Your links are rather unclear. Could you say where the second quote is from? (I do know, actually. Just wondering to see if you dare show it.)

Kennedy alleges that thimerosal causes autism through mercury poisoning. Thimerosal was removed from vaccines in 2000 (and isn't used in MMR anyway) and autism rates continued to rise. That article was written in 2005, at which time he would have been aware of that fact. I think that gives us a good indication of how much credence to give his words.

Nicki

ford_prefect wrote: »

The yellow card reporting system is there to collect data and to make decisions on safety, efficacy and usability of a drug.

When a drug is released to market it has been tested but on a population size which when compared to the targeted user base is minimal, the yellow card system acts as one massive data gathering exercise on a much larger population cohort.

From that data pronouncements on the safety and risk of drugs can be made.

The advantage of this reporting method is that it does catch major ADR's not seen in the pre release testing population. It works on a simple scoring system, the more reports of a particular ADR the higher up the list it goes.

Yay, quote button worked this time.

I don't disagree with any of this, but nor does in contradict the point I made, which was that to lump together all Adrs over a 4 year period, and give them equal weight is not a useful measure of assessing a drug or vaccine's safety. 2000 reports of fever and 5 of encephalitis would not be as serious as 5 reports of fever and 2000 of encephalitis to be silly about things for a moment, but the total figure would be the same.

poet123

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/

"single greatest cause of the significant fall in infant mortality " so access to good nutrition, better sanitation etc, are not more important? and more responsible for the reduction in infant mortality?Then why do very many millions of vaccinated kids die every year in the 3rd world?

conradmum

ford_prefect wrote: »

Its the adults refusing to protect themselves.

If your a woman planning to have children is it your responsibility to protect yourself from German measles to protect your future progeny or do you leave it up to the herd immunity provided by others?

What about if the vaccination won't work for you? There's a small percentage of people for whom vaccination won't work or who cannot be vaccinated for health reasons.

Can I ask if you are anti-abortion? Doesn't the unborn child deserve our efforts to protect it from harm, regardless of the mother's level of responsibility?