Ground Source Heat Pumps

frslam

 

Hi beardymarrow, I have a problem with an IVT HT+ E7. I've cleaned filters (removed a lot of black stuff), had a new Heat Carrier Pump Pump fitted but I'm getting *HIGH HTF DELTA Warning. The difference between GT8 and GT9 is mahoosive, as much as (GT8)47.1 and (GT9)33.8. There doesn't seem to be that much of a problem on the DHW side but continually happening on the RAD side. I have all underfloor heating. I have telephoned ALTO, I originally bought the system from Ice Energy. The guy was helpful, he told me to clean the braided hoses. Is this difficult to do? Another thing, the counter on the Heat Pump usage. The *running hours has a minus or a dash at the start of the digits making them look like a minus. This happened relatively recently, I always use the run hours meter to chart my energy usage. Any information would be appreciated. Thank You

beardymarrow

frslam said:

 

Hi beardymarrow, I have a problem with an IVT HT+ E7. I've cleaned filters (removed a lot of black stuff), had a new Heat Carrier Pump Pump fitted but I'm getting *HIGH HTF DELTA Warning. The difference between GT8 and GT9 is mahoosive, as much as (GT8)47.1 and (GT9)33.8. There doesn't seem to be that much of a problem on the DHW side but continually happening on the RAD side. I have all underfloor heating. I have telephoned ALTO, I originally bought the system from Ice Energy. The guy was helpful, he told me to clean the braided hoses. Is this difficult to do? Another thing, the counter on the Heat Pump usage. The *running hours has a minus or a dash at the start of the digits making them look like a minus. This happened relatively recently, I always use the run hours meter to chart my energy usage. Any information would be appreciated. Thank You

Hi, 
It's very easy to do. My previous post shows how I did it today because of exactly the same problem. You could also turn up the pump to 3 if not already, but that's masking the real problem which is likely a blockage somewhere.

The delta you have is over spec (should be 6-10, alarms at 13) but it's not crazy high, so it needs sorting but it's not disastrous. 
 
The - thing is nothing to worry about. When it gets to I think 32768 hours it rolls over to - 32768 and carries on counting up from there. It's because the rego 637 control unit holds that value in a variable that is too small really. 

frslam

beardymarrow said

It's very easy to do. My previous post shows how I did it today because of exactly the same problem. You could also turn up the pump to 3 if not already, but that's masking the real problem which is likely a blockage somewhere.

The delta you have is over spec (should be 6-10, alarms at 13) but it's not crazy high, so it needs sorting but it's not disastrous. 
 
The - thing is nothing to worry about. When it gets to I think 32768 hours it rolls over to - 32768 and carries on counting up from there. It's because the rego 637 control unit holds that value in a variable that is too small really. 

Thank you @beardymarrow, is there a how-to guide? Just a bit apprehensive, what water valves to shut (the one at the bottom of the Heat Carrier Pump should be easy enough, is there one nearer the exchanger? Do I need to bother with the other braided hose, I think that one goes to the electric cassette water heater? Many Thanks. And thanks for the heads up regarding the minus symbol at the run hours. I was worried about that one

beardymarrow

frslam said:

beardymarrow said

It's very easy to do. My previous post shows how I did it today because of exactly the same problem. You could also turn up the pump to 3 if not already, but that's masking the real problem which is likely a blockage somewhere.

The delta you have is over spec (should be 6-10, alarms at 13) but it's not crazy high, so it needs sorting but it's not disastrous. 
 
The - thing is nothing to worry about. When it gets to I think 32768 hours it rolls over to - 32768 and carries on counting up from there. It's because the rego 637 control unit holds that value in a variable that is too small really. 

Thank you @beardymarrow, is there a how-to guide? Just a bit apprehensive, what water valves to shut (the one at the bottom of the Heat Carrier Pump should be easy enough, is there one nearer the exchanger? Do I need to bother with the other braided hose, I think that one goes to the electric cassette water heater? Many Thanks. And thanks for the heads up regarding the minus symbol at the run hours. I was worried about that one

Hi, No there's now how to guide. This is what I did.
Turn off power to the unit.
Turn off all 4 external valves (2 x DHW and 2 x CH). No need to turn off the ground loop.
Turn off the internal valve on the return flow (the one with the filter in it, just after where the DHW and CH returns join)
Turn off the valve on the bottom of the heat carrier pump.
Undo the bottom flexible hose from the bottom of the pump and put the end in a bowl or some such
Undo the top flexible hose from the bottom of the electric cassette, but not completely. Just enough to let air in so that water flows out of the bottom hose.
Allow to drain. This will take a while. You can speed it up by removing the top hose completely, but you'll need to be ready to catch the water coming out of the cassette, which is a lot more than you think it'll be (trust me :-))
Completely remove both top and bottom flexible hoses at both ends
Flush through both
Refit, turn on all the valves and power up. I then ran the heat carrier pump manually for a bit until it stopped gurgling, otherwise you'll be running the heat exchanger with no water in it and likely to get a high pressure alarm on the compressor side.

lstevensuk

beardymarrow said:

Patrol said:

lstevensuk said:

Thanks again @beardymarrow . Alas it has tripped again   Am I assuming that's a call out?

Anyone know of an engineer in Bedfordshire area? I normally use Alto Energy.

Can't help with details but it sounds like your soft start has failed. If you're still getting hot water the unit has probably been set up to use the cassette so running at 6kW rather than the lower ground loop consumption and that would explain the smart meter alerts. Much better to happen now than in the depths of winter

I haven't ever needed to use Alto, but it's who I would use. I phoned them up once to ask them to come to a problem I had, and they actually told me how to solve it myself over the phone, which I was super impressed with. I'd never been a customer of theirs either.

You could try just replacing the capacitors in the soft start. They are just cable tied into the soft start box and the most likely failure mode. Be very careful as even with the power disconnected they will pack an almighty punch if you touch the connectors and they aren't faulty.

Alternatively a whole new soft start unit is about £650.
https://www.ivtspares.co.uk/collections/ivt-greenline-ht-e9-1x230v/products/ivtsp10209
(although you'd need exactly the right one for your unit, this is just an example for an HT+ E9 which is what I have).

Compressor would be about £1500 https://www.ivtspares.co.uk/collections/ivt-greenline-ht-e9-1x230v/products/ivtsp10055 and that's definitely not a DIY job due to the refrigerant (so hopefully it's not that) :-)

JS Energi also do spares - https://jsenergi.co.uk/ivt-spare-parts/by-model/ivt-greenline-ht-plus-e9.html

Thank you again! Definitely going to try replacing the capcitors first. Wasn't expecting a bill that big

beardymarrow

lstevensuk said:

beardymarrow said:

Patrol said:

lstevensuk said:

Thanks again @beardymarrow . Alas it has tripped again   Am I assuming that's a call out?

Anyone know of an engineer in Bedfordshire area? I normally use Alto Energy.

Can't help with details but it sounds like your soft start has failed. If you're still getting hot water the unit has probably been set up to use the cassette so running at 6kW rather than the lower ground loop consumption and that would explain the smart meter alerts. Much better to happen now than in the depths of winter

I haven't ever needed to use Alto, but it's who I would use. I phoned them up once to ask them to come to a problem I had, and they actually told me how to solve it myself over the phone, which I was super impressed with. I'd never been a customer of theirs either.

You could try just replacing the capacitors in the soft start. They are just cable tied into the soft start box and the most likely failure mode. Be very careful as even with the power disconnected they will pack an almighty punch if you touch the connectors and they aren't faulty.

Alternatively a whole new soft start unit is about £650.
https://www.ivtspares.co.uk/collections/ivt-greenline-ht-e9-1x230v/products/ivtsp10209
(although you'd need exactly the right one for your unit, this is just an example for an HT+ E9 which is what I have).

Compressor would be about £1500 https://www.ivtspares.co.uk/collections/ivt-greenline-ht-e9-1x230v/products/ivtsp10055 and that's definitely not a DIY job due to the refrigerant (so hopefully it's not that) :-)

JS Energi also do spares - https://jsenergi.co.uk/ivt-spare-parts/by-model/ivt-greenline-ht-plus-e9.html

Thank you again! Definitely going to try replacing the capcitors first. Wasn't expecting a bill that big

No worries. JS Energy do the soft start electronic module itself - https://jsenergi.co.uk/ivt-spare-parts/by-model/ivt-greenline-ht-plus-e9/014b-mjukstart-mci-12-ch-vatska-vat.html which is cheaper than the whole unit, but still £425, and you don't know what bit has failed yet (other places sell it cheaper but you're then not backed by them specifying that it's correct for your unit. That wouldn't bother me as you can check the model number on it).

I haven't looked into my soft starter box in depth to know if it's just that module and the caps that make it up, but I would assume so. I might do that over the weekend as you've sparked my interest.

Either way, I'd go for swapping the caps first myself as they're the most likely to fail and they'll be the cheapest. You might end up throwing money away and having to buy the whole unit anyway, but for me it's worth the chance.

Edit: Removed the link to the other supplier of the soft starter electronics as it's not the right one. The one on my HT+ E11 is a Danfoss TCI 25C 037N0086 (plus run and start caps).

lstevensuk

Yes agree don't want to throw money down the drain. Fingers crossed it's just them! Thanks a million!!

Oh by the way I'm a software developer so would be very interested in the raspberry Pi bits on a geek level

beardymarrow

lstevensuk said:

Yes agree don't want to throw money down the drain. Fingers crossed it's just them! Thanks a million!!

Oh by the way I'm a software developer so would be very interested in the raspberry Pi bits on a geek level

Oh, cool. I'm an enthusiastic amateur :-) My degree is in Electronic Engineering & Computer Science, but that was in 1997 :-). The Pi and Arduino stuff was more built so I could tinker with the GSHP hardware and learn Arduino, learn how the Rego was wired etc., try and control the contactors. The software started off as just being to record the temps and alarms but then I got more and more into it and learned more and more python and C and got back into it and eventually produced a working Rego replacement (which I have not and probably will never use in anger). Anyway, the software is all on the github, so you're welcome to take a look. I used github for my own sanity, not for publishing it really, so it's not designed to be read by anyone else (and I haven't done any software development for 25 years :-)). Go easy on me :-)

DazzlerDazza

beardymarrow said:

lstevensuk said:

Yes agree don't want to throw money down the drain. Fingers crossed it's just them! Thanks a million!!

Oh by the way I'm a software developer so would be very interested in the raspberry Pi bits on a geek level

Oh, cool. I'm an enthusiastic amateur :-) My degree is in Electronic Engineering & Computer Science, but that was in 1997 :-). The Pi and Arduino stuff was more built so I could tinker with the GSHP hardware and learn Arduino, learn how the Rego was wired etc., try and control the contactors. The software started off as just being to record the temps and alarms but then I got more and more into it and learned more and more python and C and got back into it and eventually produced a working Rego replacement (which I have not and probably will never use in anger). Anyway, the software is all on the github, so you're welcome to take a look. I used github for my own sanity, not for publishing it really, so it's not designed to be read by anyone else (and I haven't done any software development for 25 years :-)). Go easy on me :-)

Sounds like we could start up a bit of a tech geek group here! I've been a software engineer for 30+ years after doing a degree in Computer Science graduating back in 1992, and my GSHP project was similar to Beardy's although with more of a focus on the software side. Having said that I did have to build the hardware interface which was a bit of a learning experience for me! I've been meaning to reply to Beardy's earlier post on this stuff but just been too busy - but I'd be happy to talk more and share some stuff when I get a bit more time.

beardymarrow

lstevensuk said:

beardymarrow said:

Patrol said:

lstevensuk said:

Thanks again @beardymarrow . Alas it has tripped again   Am I assuming that's a call out?

Anyone know of an engineer in Bedfordshire area? I normally use Alto Energy.

Can't help with details but it sounds like your soft start has failed. If you're still getting hot water the unit has probably been set up to use the cassette so running at 6kW rather than the lower ground loop consumption and that would explain the smart meter alerts. Much better to happen now than in the depths of winter

I haven't ever needed to use Alto, but it's who I would use. I phoned them up once to ask them to come to a problem I had, and they actually told me how to solve it myself over the phone, which I was super impressed with. I'd never been a customer of theirs either.

You could try just replacing the capacitors in the soft start. They are just cable tied into the soft start box and the most likely failure mode. Be very careful as even with the power disconnected they will pack an almighty punch if you touch the connectors and they aren't faulty.

Alternatively a whole new soft start unit is about £650.
https://www.ivtspares.co.uk/collections/ivt-greenline-ht-e9-1x230v/products/ivtsp10209
(although you'd need exactly the right one for your unit, this is just an example for an HT+ E9 which is what I have).

Compressor would be about £1500 https://www.ivtspares.co.uk/collections/ivt-greenline-ht-e9-1x230v/products/ivtsp10055 and that's definitely not a DIY job due to the refrigerant (so hopefully it's not that) :-)

JS Energi also do spares - https://jsenergi.co.uk/ivt-spare-parts/by-model/ivt-greenline-ht-plus-e9.html

Thank you again! Definitely going to try replacing the capcitors first. Wasn't expecting a bill that big

Hi,
I was curious so I have just been out to check the resistance of my capacitors and the compressor, so I know in future if I have the same problem is it the capacitors or is it the compressor. This is on my IVT HT+ E9, so your values may differ slightly.

With everything wired up, but the GSHP switched off
Compressor Run Winding 1.5ohms - Terminal 2/N (Common Blue Wire) to 4/T1 (Run Black Wire) on the Danfoss Soft Starter
Compressor Start Winding 2.3ohms - Terminal 2/N (Common Blue Wire) to Brown Wire connected to Run Capacitor (Smaller silver one) (or Terminal 2 on Start Relay)

Capacitors - Check for short circuit. You should get a reading across the terminals which will then rise to open circuit (OL). This is easiest to check by checking between 1/N and 3/L1 on the Soft Starter.