MSE News: Tuition fees to hit £9,000 as Government wins vote

bestpud

Aless wrote: »

I am not sure why you think your ancedotal experience is any better than anybody else's ancedotal experience. I provide my experience as a counter to yours and I would think both are equally valid.

I have not heard anyone else mention that there are wide spread grants available. I know the NHS often provides them for related courses but if there is a big part of this plan I am missing I would be interested to know what it is.

It is a fact that Oxbridge is unusual in barring students from working. Most universities do not!

I don't know the figures for parents who pay tuition fees for their children but I don't think I am wrong in suggesting it is not the norm...

The grants are from student finance...? Nothing to do with being widespread!

Do you actually know what student funding is available?

Have a look at the direct.gov website - it's actually quite generous for lower income families! You don't need to be unwaged or receiving free school meals at all!!

Queen-Bee_2

I'm simply amazed by the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude of many posters on this subject.

In particular, I have an aversion to those people who whine about contributing towards university costs because they, personally, don't stand to benefit. Since when have we been able to opt out of paying for things we don't need or don't like? I don't have children, but don't begrudge child allowance or tax breaks to those with families. It's called Society. There is no opt out clause.

The decision makers who voted for this benefitted from 'free' university education - now it seems they are happy to pull up the drawbridge behind them.

Also, a lot of twaddle is being written about the increased fees not putting off people from poorer backgrounds choosing to go to university. This is ludicrous. The families with money will help their children out in the way they always do. Those without won't be able to, and those students will have to shoulder the full burden of fees on their own.

Moving forward, do we really want to live in the type of society that follows the US model? Where everything has to be paid for, and those without, well... simply go without??
QB

bestpud

Queen-Bee wrote: »

I'm simply amazed by the 'I'm alright Jack' attitude of many posters on this subject.

In particular, I have an aversion to those people who whine about contributing towards university costs because they, personally, don't stand to benefit. Since when have we been able to opt out of paying for things we don't need or don't like? I don't have children, but don't begrudge child allowance or tax breaks to those with families. It's called Society. There is no opt out clause.

The decision makers who voted for this benefitted from 'free' university education - now it seems they are happy to pull up the drawbridge behind them.

Also, a lot of twaddle is being written about the increased fees not putting off people from backgrounds choosing to go to university. This is ludicrous. The families with money will help their children out in the way they always do. Those without won't be able to, and those students will have to shoulder the full burden of fees on their own.

Moving forward, do we really want to live in the type of society that follows the US model? Where everything has to be paid for, and those without, well... simply go without??
QB

I don't agree with raising the fees as it happens, but it's not twaddle to say poorer students receive more help!

Less well off students receive a finace package that includes loans and non-repayable grants. The earnings threshold for receiving this support is already reasonable but it is set to rise with the new fees i.e. More students receive grants.

They do not have to face it alone as they are given these grants to replace the support that better off parents are expected to provide!

The students who really do miss out all ways are those from wealthier backgrounds with parents who refuse to help. There are also parents who earn well but have other commitments and can't afford to support their children as much as is expected. Those students really do have to face it alone!!!

Less well off students can leave with less debt because they are entitled to grants!

I am not happy with the rise in fees but I do wish people would get their facts straight before ranting. The biggest argument put forward at the moment is actually the weakest and the one that least stands up to scrutiny imo.

dkmax_2

Queen-Bee wrote: »

In particular, I have an aversion to those people who whine about contributing towards university costs because they, personally, don't stand to benefit. Since when have we been able to opt out of paying for things we don't need or don't like? I don't have children, but don't begrudge child allowance or tax breaks to those with families. It's called Society. There is no opt out clause.

We decide what we as a society should play for collectively and we do this by expressing our opinions and coming to an agreement. I don't think universal child benefit is a good idea, for instance.

I have an aversion to people protesting about a system that they clearly haven't thought through and where they cannot offer fully costed alternatives.

The decision makers who voted for this benefitted from 'free' university education - now it seems they are happy to pull up the drawbridge behind them.

They've paid for their education through general taxation because they've been paying taxes for longer and there were substantially fewer university students in the past. We could continue to pay through general taxation if we closed a few dozen universities. Is this what you want?

Also, a lot of twaddle is being written about the increased fees not putting off people from poorer backgrounds choosing to go to university. This is ludicrous.

If paying an average of £30 per month puts someone off going to university then perhaps university is not for them. Indeed, perhaps employment is not for them either cause they'll be paying much more than that in tax, NI etc.

In a few year's time we'll be wondering what all the fuss was about.

BTW I have paid for two degrees from my own hard-earned money. I did without holidays and luxuries to save up. I fail to see why everyone else can't do the same. This tuition fee package is fantastic.

melancholly

dkmax wrote: »

I have an aversion to people protesting about a system that they clearly haven't thought through and where they cannot offer fully costed alternatives.

i have an aversion to a goverment pushing though a hastily put together plan that does nothing to secure the long term stability of higher education because the sums don't add up (well they might, but they haven't given enough info for universities to even know that yet!).

http://www.ifs.org.uk/bns/bn113.pdf
report from institute of fiscal studies

http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/Newsroom/Speeches/Pages/ProfessorSteveSmith'sspeechforUUKfundingdebate.aspx
universities uk speech highlighting key missing details

Aless

bestpud wrote: »

It is a fact that Oxbridge is unusual in barring students from working. Most universities do not!

I don't know the figures for parents who pay tuition fees for their children but I don't think I am wrong in suggesting it is not the norm...

The grants are from student finance...? Nothing to do with being widespread!

Do you actually know what student funding is available?

Have a look at the direct.gov website - it's actually quite generous for lower income families! You don't need to be unwaged or receiving free school meals at all!!

I asked you what grants were available because I only know of NHS ones and you are the only person I know (even outside of this forum) who has said there are grants available and you said it in such a way that made me think you were saying they were wide spread. Sorry my mistake if that is not what you meant. I am aware that there are various busaries etc. around and I mentioned previously that I though they were a bit ad hoc. So I did say I do not know what else there is.

I mentioned free school meals because that is part of the plan that went through parliament and that has been widely publicised.

I went to Student Finance and I put in the info for grants using my details (when I was 17 not those of my situation today) as if I were a 17 year old applying for uni in 2011 and it said there were not any, only loans. So I have not found anything to change my opinion but as I said before I would be interested to know if there were more grants.

bestpud

Aless wrote: »

I asked you what grants were available because I only know of NHS ones and you are the only person I know (even outside of this forum) who has said there are grants available and you said it in such a way that made me think you were saying they were wide spread. Sorry my mistake if that is not what you meant. I am aware that there are various busaries etc. around and I mentioned previously that I though they were a bit ad hoc. So I did say I do not know what else there is.

I mentioned free school meals because that is part of the plan that went through parliament and that has been widely publicised.

I went to Student Finance and I put in the info for grants using my details (when I was 17 not those of my situation today) as if I were a 17 year old applying for uni in 2011 and it said there were not any, only loans. So I have not found anything to change my opinion but as I said before I would be interested to know if there were more grants.

The full student grant of just under £3k is available for students if their parents earn under £25k and a partial grant available for students with parenta, income up to £50k.

That is topped up by individual universities so could be considerably more but is guaranteed to be at least £3k. There is obviously extra for students with disabilities/other commitments but that is the basic allowance for people in that income bracket.

That is on top of the fee and maintenance loans.

Families entitled to free school meals earn considerable less than £25k a year.

The finance package is supposed to be improved for such students so they should be no worse off until they graduate and will still be better off that better off students whose family do not support them.

atypical

Why are the people who think it wrong that taxpayers should subsidise university students not also complaining that it is wrong for higher earning graduates to subsidise lower earning ones? Shouldn't everyone be paying for their own keep?

Even worse, the people who go on to earn less are likely to be the people from "mickey mouse" courses that have been mentioned so frequently and thus find it difficult to get a job. Of course a few will be those who go on to take a low paying job by choice but I would very much doubt these are the majority of low earners.

Effectively those who should be at university are subsidising those who are better off never having gone. But then this proposal has never been about selecting the right people to go to university. It has always been sold as a way of solving the funding difficulties in higher education. Even that it doesn't do as universities will have no extra funding after the proposals.

The cost has just been transferred to the student leaving the UK well below the OECD average GDP spend on higher education. I think that is one of the best indicators we have to show whether we have got the balance right - we quite clearly haven't.

WhiteHorse

Aless wrote: »

... it is also the university that surveys have said students drink the most at. Imagine that, lots of clever hard working students that go out once or twice a week during term time and drink a lot ...

It also says that they have plenty of money.

Queen-Bee_2

bestpud wrote: »

it's not twaddle to say poorer students receive more help!
...I do wish people would get their facts straight before ranting. The biggest argument put forward at the moment is actually the weakest and the one that least stands up to scrutiny imo.

What I actually said is that increased fees will deter people from poorer backgrounds from going to university.

That is not the same as saying poorer students do not receive help.

It is also my opinion, not a rant. Whether you like it or not is completely immaterial!