Yet Another Penalty Fare Thread

Stigy

newfoundglory wrote: »

The above is almost correct. I have always believed that Penalty Fares are civil debts, but you will probably find that RPI's and TOC's will argue differently. The problem is, I don't believe any TOC has ever tried to recover a Penalty Fare in the county court. Presumably the reason for this is that it would set some sort of precedent, which may not be in the TOC favour (think back to Bank charges, when after the precedent was set even in the small claims process people had no trouble recovering their charges)

Firstly, you are not going to be prosecuted for being a "fare dodger" - you had a ticket, but were just unable to show it. So lets make it clear the train company will never convict you under "travel without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof". It would be impossible to convict someone with intent to avoid payment, when you already had PAID (assuming you can prove this of course).

You are more likely to be prosecuted under the railway bylaws which make failing to show a valid ticket a strict liability offence. However, i don't know how common this type of prosecution would be. This is why if you ever forget your ticket, you should buy one and then claim it back later....

What you need to do is photocopy the ticket in question, and write a nice letter to SWT's revenue protection department apologising for the confusion... and see what happens!

The PFN is a civil remedy for a criminal offence. At the end of the day, if you don't have a ticket and a PF is issued, you're in breach of a byelaw, otherwise a ticket would be sold for the journey being made. I've never known of a PF being taken to County Court either, because the PF tends to be cancelled and the initial byelaw offence prosecuted at a Magistrates Court (for the record, TOCs do this very often).

You are correct that it's the Byelaw offence that's prosecuted (usually 18.1), and not a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 offence (5.3(a)), namely because the burden of proof that establishes the intent to avoid the initial fare involved, isn't there. The only avoided fare would be that of the Penalty Fare, and even then, no questions would have been put to the offender as to establish their intentions. All that being said, it's true that being prosecuted under railway Byelaws doesn't make you a fare evader.

deed wrote:

That wasn't the implication of my mentioning involvement with them. I'd write up a clever analogy to make you look even more dumb but your role as a troll in other threads is all too well established!

If you spoke that way to the RPI when he was PF'ing you, I'm not surprised he didn't sell you a ticket. I hope you don't act so arrogant in your correspondence with SWT/IRCAS, as it'll get you nowhere. As a spotty student, you'll never change the byelaws, as you're not important enough for anybody to worry about at this stage in your life...You might oneday be Prime Minister, that being the case, you might stand a little, miniscule chance of making a difference to the byelaws. Until then, pay the PF and be done with it, otherwise you'll end up with a conviction.

geordieracer

deed02392 wrote: »

Excellent word work there, 'done well'.



That wasn't the implication of my mentioning involvement with them. I'd write up a clever analogy to make you look even more dumb but your role as a troll in other threads is all too well established!

Well considering that you still haven't informed me of who they are then ill leave it at that.

Stigy

geordieracer wrote: »

Well considering that you still haven't informed me of who they are then ill leave it at that.

Maybe he meant UKIP?

deed02392

Stigy wrote: »

If you spoke that way to the RPI when he was PF'ing you, I'm not surprised he didn't sell you a ticket. I hope you don't act so arrogant in your correspondence with SWT/IRCAS, as it'll get you nowhere. As a spotty student, you'll never change the byelaws, as you're not important enough for anybody to worry about at this stage in your life...You might oneday be Prime Minister, that being the case, you might stand a little, miniscule chance of making a difference to the byelaws. Until then, pay the PF and be done with it, otherwise you'll end up with a conviction.

Would you have been surprised if I hadn't and he still refused to sell me a ticket?

I'm neither a student or spotty. As I have already said, I would have no intention of changing them alone. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels the byelaws allow prosecution of innocent TOC customers and who knows, with some persuation 'someone important enough to worry about' might assist.

Your stereotypical view of students is precisely something UKYP was founded to combat. If you're one of those who doesn't know what it is, you could Google it. That is assuming you're not too old to operate a search engine. Oops, did I just stereotype? How hypocritical of me.

robt_2

The UK Youth Parliament (UKYP) enables young people to use their energy and passion to change the world for the better. Run by young people for young people, UKYP gives the young people of the UK, between the age of 11 and 18 a voice,

Like we have said - just a kid trying to change the world because they knowingly broke the law.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

deed02392 wrote: »

Would you have been surprised if I hadn't and he still refused to sell me a ticket?

I'm neither a student or spotty. As I have already said, I would have no intention of changing them alone. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels the byelaws allow prosecution of innocent TOC customers and who knows, with some persuation 'someone important enough to worry about' might assist.

Your stereotypical view of students is precisely something UKYP was founded to combat. If you're one of those who doesn't know what it is, you could Google it. That is assuming you're not too old to operate a search engine. Oops, did I just stereotype? How hypocritical of me.

Your problem is that you were not innocent at all. Did you or did you not produce a valid ticket for your journey when asked?

A) Yes i did have my ticket on me and i showed it when asked for it.

No, I did not have any valid ticket on me when i was asked to produce it.


If your answer was A - then you would not have got PF'd
If your answer was B then you received a PF. It makes no odds with most TOCs whether or not you have paid for a ticket and left it at home - it is if you have it with you whilst you are travelling.

Have you written to SWT stating that you have a season ticket and showed them proof of this? Im not sure if they do the same as Chiltern who i use and give you a couple of days let off a year as long as you mention to the ticket office about this..

If not then pay it because you really dont want a court summons if your appeal has already failed.

Max_Planck

Livingthedream, stigy & robt;
Might be easier if you leave the little troll alone - if you google Deed02392 you'll see he has a history of posting on forums and disappearing again shortly after he's had his say!

geordie_taxi

Max_Planck wrote: »

Livingthedream, stigy & robt;
Might be easier if you leave the little troll alone - if you google Deed02392 you'll see he has a history of posting on forums and disappearing again shortly after he's had his say!

who made u forum police!!!!!!! i think u should keep ur nose out of other peoples threads unless u have something on topic to post. :mad:

robt_2

geordie_taxi wrote: »

who made u forum police!!!!!!! i think u should keep ur nose out of other peoples threads unless u have something on topic to post. :mad:

There is some irony

Do you have anything on topic you would like to add as your first contribution to this thread?

Edit: I see you now have

geordie_taxi

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

Your problem is that you were not innocent at all. Did you or did you not produce a valid ticket for your journey when asked?

A) Yes i did have my ticket on me and i showed it when asked for it.

No, I did not have any valid ticket on me when i was asked to produce it.


If your answer was A - then you would not have got PF'd
If your answer was B then you received a PF. It makes no odds with most TOCs whether or not you have paid for a ticket and left it at home - it is if you have it with you whilst you are travelling.

Have you written to SWT stating that you have a season ticket and showed them proof of this? Im not sure if they do the same as Chiltern who i use and give you a couple of days let off a year as long as you mention to the ticket office about this..

If not then pay it because you really dont want a court summons if your appeal has already failed.

wot a load of rubbish. the train company will be very reluctant to prosecute anybody with a valid season ticket even for bylaw 18.1

for starters any good defence lawyer would rip any prosecution to bits with the 'how can it be an offence when the passenger had a season ticket it was a simple mistake and an over zealous revenue bloke'

next this could easily turn into a media nightmare for south west trains if this got to the papers im sure south west trains would rather aviod this bad publicity.