Yet Another Penalty Fare Thread

deed02392

Appeal Upheld

I just got a letter confirming that the appeal has been upheld and the outstanding amount is now zero. It was upheld on the basis that season ticket customers can forget their season tickets twice in a 12 month period. This will be the first time.

Justice!

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Hi all,

So yesterday I received a Penalty Fare courtesy 'Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited'.

I purchase seasonal rail cards to get me to college five days a week. Last week, after going through the insane rigmarole associated with returning a season ticket I neglected to put the week season ticket I purchased in place of it in my ticket holder.

(The long story short is, I bought a month ticket with only 2 weeks of term left, was told by 3 different rail company assoc. staff I could return it without fee next day (when first day of ticket applied), had relative go out their way to drive me to college so as to avoid using the ticket and yet have been landed with £10 admin fee in returning it and forced to pay for a return journey I did not make as it was 'assumed you had made the journey because it's now 5pm and the opportunity was there'. Sent a letter to customer services RE that which I'll supply copy of to anyone who asks).

So there I am quite content, after boarding at Fratton (no barriers) that this was just another ordinary day of (ab?)using this public service. A chap asks for my ticket, without thinking due to it being such a routine I present him my ticket holder. 'This is out of date'. What? On the front of a catalogue of previously purchases season tickets dating back of course to September, is last months season ticket. I explain I must have left it at home and he tells me it's going to cost me £20 and asks for my ID.

Outraged after last weeks experience I refuse to hand him my ID, so he makes the threat the police will be waiting for me at Fareham (which operates barriers). I insist I will not give him my ID so he storms off anouncing to the carriage he'll 'see [me] in the cells'. Not put off I leave the train hoping to explain the situation to a more reasonable staff member at Fareham.

However the collecter has disembarked to await me at the barriers. He warns the police are on their way and it would be in my best interests to hand him my ID. Concerned about being late for classes I give up and offer him my ID. He completes a PENALTY FARE NOTICE/RECEIPT (not unpaid notice) and for the first time explains the appeals process. Great, I thought, if he had told me of that on the train I may have been more co-operative. Surely an appeals board will see my case straight.

With a smug expression as I'm let through the barrier by a sympathetic looking Fareham staff member he announces I am not to forget I'll need to pay the fare to get home. He also didn't bother returning my previous season tickets to me (for some reason he felt it necessary to remove them from my holder along with the picture hard and the 16-25 Railcard I hold, a re-purchase after happy experiences of them from the year before) and regrettably I forgot to ask for them. Generously and surely to his disdain my mother offered to bring me my season ticket to be able to get home with.

During the appeals process which was rather smooth (albeit a technical glitch being involved on the IRCAS site being they have incorrectly configured their SSL certificates) I found myself unable to answer the 'reason for issue'. He has failed to select a reason! Is this grounds for an invalid penalty fare notice?

After reading many of the other posts in this forum regarding penalty fare notices and the administration fees I am very interested to know whether there is any action I can take to recooperate the admin fee DEDUCTED from my refund of the month season ticket? That might make for a very interesting case indeed.

I am an apprentice working for a company who because of my intended position would have no choice but to sack me if I were to receive a CCJ but that is a grey area I've not been able to properly deduce from reading about other cases on this forum.

I hope somebody will have a thorough mull over my case and let me know what I can do!

Many thanks,
a kid who types too fast for his thoughts.



Power to the people!

deed02392

Bump.

I know it's a long read but it's important you have the full story.

dzug1

deed02392 wrote: »

Bump.

I know it's a long read but it's important you have the full story.

It's not in the least important - most of it is irrelevant padding letting vent to your feelings and giving a (hopefully false) impression of you as an arrogant young !!!!.

No idea whether you will get your admin fee back or not - I suspect you might not have paid it if you had returned it in first thing.

Pay the penalty fare - the circumstances in which it came to be levied are irrelevant. It's for not showing a ticket, not for not having one. And you did yourself no favours by refusing to show ID.

Hwever wikipedia says that no train company has ever taken anyone to (civil) court to enforce payment. They can do a criminal prosecution - but would have to show you intended to avoid paying

robt_2

So lets cut the crap - you didn't have a ticket (reason is irrelevant) and were caught.

I wouldn't worry about a CCJ, if anything you would get a criminal conviction through a magistrates court. Unlikely though of course.

deed02392

dzug1 wrote: »

It's not in the least important - most of it is irrelevant padding letting vent to your feelings and giving a (hopefully false) impression of you as an arrogant young !!!!.

Ah I'm glad that filtered through!

No idea whether you will get your admin fee back or not - I suspect you might not have paid it if you had returned it in first thing.

Not according to their rules, no time limit is placed on the administration fee being chargeable. It makes me wonder what would happen if I was sold a ticket between the wrong two stations. Do they not have the ability to refund a ticket free of charge?

I feel that a relevant point to make since the ticket I was re-sold was NOT between the same two stations as the one I returned, costing me MORE than it should have done (and possibly resulted in my travelling on an invalid ticket).

Pay the penalty fare - the circumstances in which it came to be levied are irrelevant. It's for not showing a ticket, not for not having one. And you did yourself no favours by refusing to show ID.

I don't think I will. If this is the way the current system works I would endeavour to have it changed and I feel this could be an important step in that process. Favours shouldn't be a factor as providing false details is the only criminal offence that could arise of said situation, not refusing to verify them there and then. It came down to a matter of him refusing to trust my word.

Hwever wikipedia says that no train company has ever taken anyone to (civil) court to enforce payment. They can do a criminal prosecution - but would have to show you intended to avoid paying

I wish them the best of luck in doing that, considering I already had purchased a valid ticket.

In my opinion penalty fares should ONLY be issued if at the discretion of the authorised collector they believe I had indeed intended to avoid paying.

I find that logic hard to argue with.

deed02392

robt wrote: »

So lets cut the crap - you didn't have a ticket (reason is irrelevant) and were caught.

I wouldn't worry about a CCJ, if anything you would get a criminal conviction through a magistrates court. Unlikely though of course.

Excellent, thanks for your input. I won't pay, but I might keep the penalty fare notice, however. I've just had a curry.

robt_2

I think we have established you just wanted to have a rant rather than actually wanting any advice.

Good luck whatever you choose to do.

Livingthedream

deed02392 wrote: »

Hi all,

So yesterday I received a Penalty Fare courtesy thorough mull over my case and let me know what I can do!....................blah..........blah..........blah..............Many thanks,
a kid who types too fast for his thoughts.

Power to the people!

Wow, right lets see if I can help you in my confusion after reading your epic novel.

First of all, never try to be smarter than a Revenue Protection Inspector, the biggest power they have is the right to your name and address, failing to give them that info puts a smile on their face as they can get you arrested. Please don't do it again.

Second, if as you say the Penalty Fare Notice hasn't been filled out correctly then appeal it on those grounds. But only send a photocopy of the PFN as they might lose it.

Thirdly, as to the admin fee, they the Train Company have already take it out of the refund, so you will have to do all the chasing to get it back. The TOC will just keep write back saying it's justified and won't do anything until you issue a small claims against them.

Lastly, the PFN is a civil debt problem handled in a small claims court, if you appeal to the TOC and lose then my advice is pay it, as in theory you were travelling without a valid ticket, the TOC can cancel the PFN and prosecute you as a fare dodger in a Court of Law. Also you can only get a CCJ if you fail to pay the fine imposed on you by a court.

SWT and RPI's sounds like one for you Stigy.

deed02392

Livingthedream wrote: »

If as you say the Penalty Fare Notice hasn't been filled out correctly then appeal it on those grounds. But only send a photocopy of the PFN as they might lose it.

I've appealed online with IRCAS, I didn't mention the fact that it hadn't been filled out correctly but I did provide a scan of both the PFN and my Season Ticket.

...as to the admin fee, they the Train Company have already take it out of the refund, so you will have to do all the chasing to get it back. The TOC will just keep write back saying it's justified and won't do anything until you issue a small claims against them.

Would you consider this worth doing given the admin fees they removed were £10 and the cost of starting a case at small claims is £25? Is there a good chance I'd actually be able to recover that?

Lastly, the PFN is a civil debt problem handled in a small claims court, if you appeal to the TOC and lose then my advice is pay it, as in theory you were travelling without a valid ticket, the TOC can cancel the PFN and prosecute you as a fare dodger in a Court of Law. Also you can only get a CCJ if you fail to pay the fine imposed on you by a court.

Talking technically, I did 'have' a valid ticket, I was only unable to present it. Do I not have a good case given I did own a valid ticket which was already in my posession, only not on my person at the time of travel? Unintentionally of course, as Fareham has barriers it should be obvious to anyone I was not intending to evade fare (which I also see as logically impossible since I had already paid for a valid ticket).

Under what terms would they be able to prosecute me as a fare dodger? Is there somewhere I can do some more reading on what case they would bring and what defence I would need to make?

If you really feel like there is zero chance I could win in the court then as I said, I should endeavour to see this changed. I have close links to MPs in my region (across several constituencies) thanks to my involvement in UKYP.

I am sure there will be many readers who would consider me foolish for pursuing this. I can only offer my sympathy for people who feel so opressed they do not think they have a voice.

deed02392

robt wrote: »

I think we have established you just wanted to have a rant rather than actually wanting any advice.

Speak for yourself.

Good luck whatever you choose to do.

Thanks.

robt_2

You have already been told the offence is failing to show a valid ticket. As you want to talk 'technically', then you were in the wrong. Fact.

To be honest, your whole attitude stinks. People are so oppressed that they feel they don't have a voice? No. It is called having life experience, priorities, and accepting consequences when you break the law.

Like I said, good luck though. I was young once and may well have done the same as you.