Yet Another Penalty Fare Thread

wealdroam

deed02392 wrote: »

Under what terms would they be able to prosecute me as a fare dodger? Is there somewhere I can do some more reading on what case they would bring and what defence I would need to make?

You could start reading here...

Railway Byelaws.

Livingthedream

deed02392 wrote: »

I've appealed online with IRCAS, I didn't mention the fact that it hadn't been filled out correctly but I did provide a scan of both the PFN and my Season Ticket.

You should have mentioned it as it would have given you a stronger case for appeal.

deed02392 wrote: »

Would you consider this worth doing given the admin fees they removed were £10 and the cost of starting a case at small claims is £25? Is there a good chance I'd actually be able to recover that?

You've got remember there's a chance they might say OK take us to court and I think they could easily justify £10 to a court.

deed02392 wrote: »

Talking technically, I did 'have' a valid ticket, I was only unable to present it. Do I not have a good case given I did own a valid ticket which was already in my posession, only not on my person at the time of travel? Unintentionally of course, as Fareham has barriers it should be obvious to anyone I was not intending to evade fare (which I also see as logically impossible since I had already paid for a valid ticket).

It doesn't matter at the time of travel you didn't have a valid ticket. Also, for fare dodgers there's many ways around 'barriers'.

deed02392 wrote: »

Under what terms would they be able to prosecute me as a fare dodger? Is there somewhere I can do some more reading on what case they would bring and what defence I would need to make?

Remeber; PFN=Civil, Byelaws=Criminal Law so at the momet you won't get prosecuted.

This is the final roll of the dice for the Train Company, if they can't get their money from the PFN then they try byelaw infringment.

If this get to court there is no defence, the only defence is to stop it getting to court. To do this you have to prove to the Train Company that your not a fare dodger, how to do this? Write a letter of complaint about your PFN to the Train Company, ICRAS and Passenger Focus saying how badly you have been treated, also that you contest this PFN as your not a fare dodger because you had a valid ticket, just forgot it and that you feel so strongly about it that you are willing for them to take you to court over it, enclosing photocopies of season tickets and PFN. If they reject this letter keep writting to them, this hopefully will close the route of prosecution and keep it a civil matter.

Again your calling their bluff, that it will be to difficult for the TOC to get a conviction, but understand this you run the risk that they might take you to court.

deed02392 wrote: »

If you really feel like there is zero chance I could win in the court then as I said, I should endeavour to see this changed. I have close links to MPs in my region (across several constituencies) thanks to my involvement in UKYP.

Irrelevant, even though it's private companies that run the railways the Government controls it (DfT) and get good monies from it via franchising and taxes, why do you think they havn't removed the byelaws, I mean what other private company has this power.

dzug1

You would probably lose in a civil court since the penalty is for failing to produce a ticket, not for not having one. That assumes they can be bothered to take it to court. As long as you paid up when ordered by the court you wouldn't get a CCJ if that's the issue.

You would probably win in a criminal court because there was no intent to avoid paying. This is their more likely route - except there is clear evidence that it was not intentional fare dodging so it would be wasting their time

Tinks74

Regardless of the whys and wherefores of returning the unwanted season ticket. I have, before now, forgotten my season ticket when going to work and bought one on the train, then returned to my local station with both tickets and have recieved a refund. I don't know whether it "should" be done, but it has been. What I didn't do was be awkward with the guard and insist he let me travel without showing him a valid ticket.

Livingthedream

dzug1 wrote: »

You would probably lose in a civil court since the penalty is for failing to produce a ticket, not for not having one. That assumes they can be bothered to take it to court. As long as you paid up when ordered by the court you wouldn't get a CCJ if that's the issue.

However, with a civil case the Train Companies doesn't want their terms and conditions (Contract Law) picked apart by a good solicitor, to which could set a precedent. Hence why East Coast Railways dropped the PFN against the professor.

dzug1 wrote: »

You would probably win in a criminal court because there was no intent to avoid paying. This is their more likely route - except there is clear evidence that it was not intentional fare dodging so it would be wasting their time

Totally agree, A magistrate wouldn't be happy with the Train Company if the defendant produced a valid ticket for that day as evidence, especially if the defendant proves with letters of complaint that he told the Train Company of this evidence.

chuckley

minimum wage jobs worth. ALL those inspectors n barrier workers r. they feel they have a right to talk to like crap on their shoe. They always threaten the police and blah blah like its gonna change matters.

Tube station ones r the worst.

Bunter_2

deed02392 wrote: »

Talking technically, I did 'have' a valid ticket, I was only unable to present it. Do I not have a good case given I did own a valid ticket which was already in my posession, only not on my person at the time of travel? Unintentionally of course, as Fareham has barriers it should be obvious to anyone I was not intending to evade fare (which I also see as logically impossible since I had already paid for a valid ticket).

What is a "valid ticket". Anyone can buy a ticket and then hand it over to someone else to use. It is only valid for the person who actually presents the ticket at the station. Tickets with Photo ID's and travelcards are only valid when actually presented by the holder.

I was on a train journey early this week and the ticket inspector gave us quite a little speech at the beginning of the journey. Anyone unable to show their travelcards would be charged full fare. Anyone with an advance ticket travelling on the wrong train would be charged full fare and etc.

I have a "valid" railcard and if I do not have it with me when I present my ticket I would have to pay the full fare. I think this is fair enough. After all I could easily "lend" the travelcard to a friend and then they could get a substantially reduced fare to which they are not entitled.

You have obviously made a mistake in not having a valid ticket to travel (in your possession) but unfortunately the problem appears to have been largely escalated and exacerbated by the manner in which you dealt with it.

If you did not have the ticket in your possession how could you possibly prove that someone else was not using it? Photo ID's help prevent fraud but they are not invincible. You must know that there are a lot of chancers around who will mis-use the system if they possibly can.

Stigy

Livingthedream wrote: »

SWT and RPI's sounds like one for you Stigy.

I'll try

deed02.... wrote:

Talking technically, I did 'have' a valid ticket, I was only unable to present it. Do I not have a good case given I did own a valid ticket which was already in my posession, only not on my person at the time of travel? Unintentionally of course, as Fareham has barriers it should be obvious to anyone I was not intending to evade fare (which I also see as logically impossible since I had already paid for a valid ticket).

You didn't have a valid ticket on you at the time of travel, therefore, the offence under 18.1 has been committed the moment you step foot on a train I'm afraid. Basically I don't think you have much hope with getting out of this one. If you lose at appeal, then refuse to pay the amount owed, it will go to Court. End of story. You can try and change the law and go all 'vigilante', but I think this will do you no favours, as the Magistrates see people such as yourself all too often. If your employment means so much to you, and you worry so much about CCJs wrecking your career, I very much doubt that a criminal conviction will do you many favours, and for the sake of what is fundamentally a £20 PF, why take the risk if a higher penalty and a record?

Bear in mind, a PF isn't intended for fare dodgers, and if the RPI thought you intended to avoid paying for your rail journey, he'd probably have reported you for the offence straight away, and miss out the middle man as it were, and go straight to see Mag. The Penalty Fare is a Civil remedy for a minor ticket byelaw infringement, and is meant to keep small ticket irregularities out of court, so as to save court for more serious offences, much like a Penalty Notice for Disorder. I must say again though, if you do end up not paying the PFN, it becomes a criminal matter.

dzug1 wrote: »

You would probably lose in a civil court since the penalty is for failing to produce a ticket, not for not having one. That assumes they can be bothered to take it to court. As long as you paid up when ordered by the court you wouldn't get a CCJ if that's the issue.

You would probably win in a criminal court because there was no intent to avoid paying. This is their more likely route - except there is clear evidence that it was not intentional fare dodging so it would be wasting their time

The Penalty Fare would not be preosecuted in a Cilkvil Court, in fact, the Penalty Fare would be written off and the matter refered to a Magistrate's Court, as a criminal matter as opposed to a civil one.

dzug1 wrote: »

Hwever wikipedia says that no train company has ever taken anyone to (civil) court to enforce payment. They can do a criminal prosecution - but would have to show you intended to avoid paying

I believe it's probably true regarding a Civil Court, although regarding having to establish the defendent's intention to avoid payment in order to go to a Magistrate's Court, that's not exactly true. It'll more than likely be a charge under National Railway Byelaw 18.1, which just shows that the defendent couldn't produce a valid rail ticket. I'd like to think that if intention to avoid payment of the fare was established, the PF wouldn't have even entered the RPI's mind, and he'd have reported the facts from the outset!

Chuckley wrote:

minimum wage jobs worth. ALL those inspectors n barrier workers r. they feel they have a right to talk to like crap on their shoe. They always threaten the police and blah blah like its gonna change matters.

Tube station ones r the worst.

Intelligent post made by somebody that clearly hasn't done their homework on the typical salery of an RPI. For the record, I believe SWT RPIs get somewhere in the region of £30,000pa, and RPAs somewhere in the region of £22,000pa....Hardly minimum wage, is it?

geordieracer

deed02392 wrote: »

I've appealed online with IRCAS, I didn't mention the fact that it hadn't been filled out correctly but I did provide a scan of both the PFN and my Season Ticket.



Would you consider this worth doing given the admin fees they removed were £10 and the cost of starting a case at small claims is £25? Is there a good chance I'd actually be able to recover that?



Talking technically, I did 'have' a valid ticket, I was only unable to present it. Do I not have a good case given I did own a valid ticket which was already in my posession, only not on my person at the time of travel? Unintentionally of course, as Fareham has barriers it should be obvious to anyone I was not intending to evade fare (which I also see as logically impossible since I had already paid for a valid ticket).

Under what terms would they be able to prosecute me as a fare dodger? Is there somewhere I can do some more reading on what case they would bring and what defence I would need to make?

If you really feel like there is zero chance I could win in the court then as I said, I should endeavour to see this changed. I have close links to MPs in my region (across several constituencies) thanks to my involvement in UKYP.

I am sure there will be many readers who would consider me foolish for pursuing this. I can only offer my sympathy for people who feel so opressed they do not think they have a voice.

you did not have a ticket when asked so you got done. Thats fair.

And who are UKYP? are they a new party? Are they able to change the railway bylaws? No? didnt think so.

Livingthedream

Stigy wrote: »

I'll try

Cheers Stigy :beer:, there you go OP that is most probably the line the Train Company will take, so you have 2 choices in my eyes;

1. Pay the PFN £20 with no worries of a criminal conviction or wrecking your career.
2. Contest the PFN using all the info given to you from this thread and other research gained from the internet and risk an appearance in Court and possible prosecution.

IMHO if the PFN was an Unpaid Fares Notice for over £100 then I would fight it, but for £20 I would brush it off and move on.