asda diesel freezing? compensation??

spanner16

mikey72 wrote: »

You don't blend, you inject into the filling pipe, so it mixes as it fills.

Not sure that I believe that, the additive quantities involved are very small compared to the volume treated, do you know first hand that's what they do?

vix2000

What would happen if you tried to start your engine and the fuel was frozen? I ask because I had not used my car since last tuesday. Knowing it has battery problems I knew it would need a jump start. When I tried to start it it made a noise which sounded to me as if a fan or something was frozen up, but I'm not very engine savvy. It didn't sound like the starter motor and I didn't want to keep trying and break something. I think it would have started other than this. Having come across this thread I wondered if the diesel may have frozen and wondered what the symptoms were. Thanks.

mikey72

spanner16 wrote: »

Not sure that I believe that, the additive quantities involved are very small compared to the volume treated, do you know first hand that's what they do?

If I say "yes", you wouldn't believe me.

look at
http://www.frost.com/prod/servlet/market-insight-top.pag?docid=95991481
for an article discussing it in 2007.

"Terminals need to install injector systems for static dissipater and lubricity additives"

But remember, this is an american article on diesel, but it's the same technology we're discussing for europe, diesel and petrol.
fuel companies don't publish much about refineries and terminals nowadays though.

davidjwest

I posted on another thread somewhere that I get around 3mpg more using Shell "standard" diesel than with Morrisons - I drive a Mondeo 2.0 TDCi, average around 40k miles a year.

Not scientific but convincing enough for me to use Shell whenever I can - I've no affiliation to Shell other than a satisfied customer.

I can't detect any other difference when driving, doesn't seem to run better apart from possibly slightly less smoke under hard accelleration.

spanner16

mikey72 wrote: »

If I say "yes", you wouldn't believe me.

look at
for an article discussing it in 2007.

"Terminals need to install injector systems for static dissipater and lubricity additives"

But remember, this is an american article on diesel, but it's the same technology we're discussing for europe, diesel and petrol.
fuel companies don't publish much about refineries and terminals nowadays though.

The article says though that in Europe the majority of additives are added at the refinery stage presumably you're assuming that this has changed.

mikey72

spanner16 wrote: »

The article says though that in Europe the majority of additives are added at the refinery stage presumably you're assuming that this has changed.

Immaterial really, what the 2007 article refers to, you said you couldn't believe additives could be injected, I showed you an example of additives being injected for low sulpher diesel.
Whether you now believe across the board or not is up to you.
Different additives can be accurately injected into different fuels.

http://hpsweb.honeywell.com/NR/rdonlyres/4BF7DAC5-9DD7-4499-A72C-9C34ECCC972B/76686/PROCESSWest_Biofuels_Ethanol_Blending_Mar09.pdf

ethanol for instance, into the loading arm, whilst blending other additives through multiple injectors.

spanner16

mikey72 wrote: »

Immaterial really, what the 2007 article refers to, you said you couldn't believe additives could be injected, I showed you an example of additives being injected for low sulpher diesel.
Whether you now believe across the board or not is up to you.
Different additives can be accurately injected into different fuels.


ethanol for instance, into the loading arm, whilst blending other additives through multiple injectors.

Ok fair enough I accept what you say about what CAN be done, but what IS done in this country here and now and is there any difference between supermarket fuels and garage fuels. You would have thought someone would have been able to prove a difference if they were that inferior. I have always thought it was a bit of an urban myth and have always argued that point of view but having had the most recent discussion (down the pub!) am looking for a definitive answer which doesn't seem to be there. I can find nothing to prove that basic grades from supermarkets are any different to basic grades from anywhere else.

casper_g

spanner16 wrote: »

... is there any difference between supermarket fuels and garage fuels. You would have thought someone would have been able to prove a difference if they were that inferior. I have always thought it was a bit of an urban myth and have always argued that point of view but having had the most recent discussion (down the pub!) am looking for a definitive answer which doesn't seem to be there. I can find nothing to prove that basic grades from supermarkets are any different to basic grades from anywhere else.

+1.

If there is a noticeable practical difference between fuels on sale, for example in the mpg they deliver, it should be simplicity itself for an independent organisation to demonstrate this. Car on a pre-programmed "drive" on a rolling road, say. Presumably the same method used to derive the official mpg figures for cars would work just fine.

If this sort of evidence hasn't been presented, and all the advertising claims are based on "XX% of motorists reported improved fuel economy", or something, then I don't believe there is a difference. Claims like this belong in cosmetics companies' adverts for face creams, not in the facts 'n' figures world of real engineering.

spanner16

casper_g wrote: »

+1.

If there is a noticeable practical difference between fuels on sale, for example in the mpg they deliver, it should be simplicity itself for an independent organisation to demonstrate this. Car on a pre-programmed "drive" on a rolling road, say. Presumably the same method used to derive the official mpg figures for cars would work just fine.

If this sort of evidence hasn't been presented, and all the advertising claims are based on "XX% of motorists reported improved fuel economy", or something, then I don't believe there is a difference. Claims like this belong in cosmetics companies' adverts for face creams, not in the facts 'n' figures world of real engineering.

I know that the "super" grades have higher octane so you get more bang for your buck if you're looking for performance or better mpg if you drive as you normally would

mikey72

spanner16 wrote: »

Ok fair enough I accept what you say about what CAN be done, but what IS done in this country here and now and is there any difference between supermarket fuels and garage fuels. You would have thought someone would have been able to prove a difference if they were that inferior. I have always thought it was a bit of an urban myth and have always argued that point of view but having had the most recent discussion (down the pub!) am looking for a definitive answer which doesn't seem to be there. I can find nothing to prove that basic grades from supermarkets are any different to basic grades from anywhere else.

They are different. As each batch is loaded, different additives are injected into the fuel being loaded.
I've said that before in this post. I've shown examples of the technology used.
Whether you think it performs differently is a different question.
No fuel is inferior to the standard it must meet. You're paying for cleaners, knock reducers, and if you pay for octane boosters, you may get better mpg, chances are you use it in slightly better performance though.