Winter tyres?

Strider590

Put one winter tyre on the drivers side front, and one on the passengers side rear. That's the best way

mikey72

wuckfit wrote: »

No. You're wrong. 2 winter tyres is far more dangerous than 4.
As I've explained several times now, you WILL swap ends under braking on ice. I've seen what happens, and another poster has confirmed it happened to them. Yet some people refuse to accept the laws of physics and think it's ok to recommend it. It's not, it's downright irresponsible. 4 summer tyres means that both ends are balanced and will slide evenly. It's not ideal, or particularly safe, but generally, the car's behaviour will be predictable. 2 winters mean that one end will have far more grip than the other. even at 20 mph you're going to spin with no input from the steering wheel. it REALLY is that simple.

if you don't believe me, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cBSWEhimdA

I know I said I'd bow out, but as you keep referring to it with authority, which particular law of physics is it?

That promotional video for Michelin?
If you actually watch it, they don't do the same cornering test with only two winter tyres on the front, as it would pass easily, they do a slalom test which the driver gets to the end of, I don't drive on snow like that.
I would like to see it done on four summer tyres for comparison.
Your theory means he would complete it with no problem?
Possibly a fairer test would be to set the benchmark with four summer tyres, to establish the speed you would need to crawl through at, then do the same test with two winter tyres on the front, and see how much faster you can safely drive.
Another fair test would be to push the car with four winter tyres until it slid, by your logic it would be in exactly the same place and in the same way every time, I think he would still be all over the place even on four winter tyres when he goes.

[Deleted User]

have any of you had any dealings with your insurance company re changing to winter tyres?

skiddlydiddly

wuckfit wrote: »

No. You're wrong. 2 winter tyres is far more dangerous than 4.
As I've explained several times now, you WILL swap ends under braking on ice. I've seen what happens, and another poster has confirmed it happened to them. Yet some people refuse to accept the laws of physics and think it's ok to recommend it. It's not, it's downright irresponsible. 4 summer tyres means that both ends are balanced and will slide evenly. It's not ideal, or particularly safe, but generally, the car's behaviour will be predictable. 2 winters mean that one end will have far more grip than the other. even at 20 mph you're going to spin with no input from the steering wheel. it REALLY is that simple.

if you don't believe me, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cBSWEhimdA

Owners of old minis, peugeot 106's/205's/306's and citroen saxos would tell you differently.Liftoff oversteer, back loses grip and slides around while the fronts do the work.

I have quite happily driven around on normal tyres without having to use the brakes and not driving like a numpty.No end swapping, no crashing.Only problems were when I had to set off on a hill and sticking winters on the driven wheels sorts that.Of course what you describe can happen but it isn't limited to this combination of tyres.

Obviously 4 are better than 2.Noone is going to dispute that but whats safer-having some grip, or no grip at all?

bigjl

Why would you be throwing a car around and testing your grip levels in snow anyway, we had snowsocks at work last winter, to aid traction in uncleared roads, rears only for Ambulances and fronts only on the Zafiras and Astras.

This is just Michelin playing silly !!!!!!s again, they just want to sell you four tyres or get you to leave the more worn tyres on the front and put the new ones on the back to make sure you need 2 new tyres sooner rather than later.

If anybody thinks that the rear will have less grip after fitting two new front tyres than before fitting them is living in a dream and the same goes for fitting the new tyres onto the rear, it doesn't mean you have less grip at the front, just that you need to adapt your driving style to the change in your tyres grip levels.


This kind of research is aimed more at those people that don't really know how to drive that well and have little feel for what the car is up to below them.

Obviously putting on four winter tyres is the better solution but putting two in the front will assist traction on hills etc.

The reason we had snowsocks fitted was purely for traction, no Zafiras where crashed due to oversteer, but when the going got slippy there was that extra bit of grip to get the vehicle going, which was the only reason to fit them, not to allow the vehicles to be driven at the same speeds as they are in dry sunny conditions.

And wuckfit, it doesn't matter what you do, if you apply the brakes on ice you won't get much reduction in speed, that is why you are supposed to plan ahead and judge your speed accurately, so you don't have to brake until the car is almost stopped. And if you are then locking your wheels you have pushed to hard on the brakes.



Wuckfit wrote "Snow chains are only for gaining traction, not braking.", I think this one statement explains why your opinion isn't to be considered as relevant, the only thing that slows you down when you press the brakes is the level of grip that the tyre can provide.

The rear brakes on a car are really only there to stop the rear overtaking the front under braking, basicaly kepping the car balanced, almost all the braking is performed by the front brakes.


To get back to the OP, as mikey72 has said, 2 winter tyres are better than none, best to have four, but two will get you going when normal tyres would leave you with no grip.

Lum

bigjl wrote: »

Why would you be throwing a car around and testing your grip levels in snow anyway

Because it's bloody good fun?

alastairq

mikey72 wrote: »

Funniest thing I ever saw was a Reliant Robin trying to follow the two ruts you get after a snowy side road has frozen. (I had a part time job, delivering milk one winter, over Christmas, many many years ago)
There was this sad faced middle aged man, driving towards me, well crabbing sideways really, with his front tyre stuck in one rut, then every so often, as he had to steer towards the centre to keep going forwards, he'd hop over the ice in the centre, switch to the other side, have to turn the other way, and it would happen again.
Front bobbing up and down, twitching left to right, right to left, he slowly made his way past!

obviously never been on/seen a Classic Reliability Trial? Where a Reliant Robin or two have clearly had more competence in off-road conditions than a land-rover....

skiddlydiddly

I'd imagine thats down to the driver, not the wheelbarrow.

alastairq

skiddlydiddly wrote: »

I'd imagine thats down to the driver, not the wheelbarrow.

as in all things motoring?

However, competence is also within the car....

skiddlydiddly

Ofc, but I can't imagine an offroad rally bearing much resemblance to driving on roads in the snow, plus people do so in the knowledge their pride and joy may have to be fixed after an event.
Around here its mostly 3-4" of ice with slush on top with a couple of ruts made by cars.A 3 wheeler is going to be driving on the ice with one wheel in the middle and getting bumped all over with little steering control.Its bad enough with 4.

I'm not trying to get into an argument with you, just think its comparing apples and oranges.