Does there come a point when access should stop?

kazmc

red_devil wrote: »

sounds like he needs counselling not your daughter.

You are SO right there, I really do think he has issues dating back from how his dad behaved.
His dad did exactly the same as he did ie: leaving his mum when he was born, erratic visits, womaniser, drinker, gambler etc etc. He really wasnt a nice person and only used to turn up to see us if he needed money or something. He didnt see him for years on end as an adult.
His mum used to cover for him all the time right up until her death and I truly think thats made Ms dad think that that behaviour is acceptable.
I know that he had councilling through his work when he left me.
He always blames everyone and everthing else for his failings unfortunately.
But then surely Ms dad should realise that this pattern needs to stop??
I had a somewhat difficult relationship with my parents and they never hugged or said 'I love you' but I can see how damaging that can be so made the decision to break the pattern and I tell M I love her ALL the time and hug and kiss her as much as she lets me!!

kazmc

thanks so much for all the time you have taken with your replies, there are so many good, valid points and ideas....

So an update....
M managed to get hold of her dad lastnight and they have arranged that he will pick her up at 4.30 today to take her shopping and for a pizza. I SO hope he turns up... I do really think he will because hes pushed things a bit too far and needs to win Ms affection back, he will be really good for 2 or 3 weeks and then let her down again. He does this all the time....
I will be having words with him when he collects her that, the next time he lets her down for whatever reason I will immediatley stop contact.
Lets see if this works....

clearingout

Kazmc - my ex hsuband is trained as a counsellor and psychotherapist and he can't see the wood for the trees so don't hold your breath! The one person he didn't want to be was his dad- and he's exactly like his dad, only worse in my opinion because his dad bumbles along blindly doing what he does. My ex knows better and has the skills and training to know when he should be asking for support and help. We split up 2 years ago this week - he has been nowhere near a therapist and continues to blame me for his affair, refers to our marriage as 'your marriage', and is generally vile. He has done one thing right - that is move to the other end of the country when we did so the boys still have him in their lives on a weekly basis - but the rest of his behaviour is dreadful and unforgiveable - calling me names in front of the boys, allowing his girlfriend to hit them and call them names, not paying maintenance, messing around with contact from my point of view so that I'm struggling to get work completed (am self employed so I have some flexiblity but not total flexibility!!!)...everything designed to make my life hell but which impacts on his children's lives.

I have recently started counselling as I am struggling with the longevity of his behaviour. I think I realise now that I'm going to have to live with it and make my life work for me, without relying on him for anything. It's tough. Take care - you can only do your best based on the information you have at the time. xxx

Errata

kazmc wrote: »

You are SO right there, I really do think he has issues dating back from how his dad behaved.
His dad did exactly the same as he did ie: leaving his mum when he was born, erratic visits, womaniser, drinker, gambler etc etc. He really wasnt a nice person and only used to turn up to see us if he needed money or something. He didnt see him for years on end as an adult.
His mum used to cover for him all the time right up until her death and I truly think thats made Ms dad think that that behaviour is acceptable.
I know that he had councilling through his work when he left me.
He always blames everyone and everthing else for his failings unfortunately.
But then surely Ms dad should realise that this pattern needs to stop??
I had a somewhat difficult relationship with my parents and they never hugged or said 'I love you' but I can see how damaging that can be so made the decision to break the pattern and I tell M I love her ALL the time and hug and kiss her as much as she lets me!!

It looks very much like your OH learned how to be a dad from his dad. You need to ensure your daughter doesn't learn how men behave through the behaviour of her dad; behaviour which is pretty toxic.

If your OH blames everyone else for things that happen then he has a serious embedded personality trait and will never have what could be classed as a healthy relationship with anyone.

One of the things a good parent teaches their child is the difference between a healthy and an unhealthy relationship. In a family setup with mum, dad and child living together the child hears each parent comment on good and bad behaviour from the other parent. This is how they learn to love the behaver but not the behaviour, and feel comfortable and confident in expressing that view.

puddy

to all those saying that at 9, she is old enough to make her own decisions about this, i would urge caution.

that age is right on the threshold for this situation, of being able to make her own decisions but also still needing to be protected from harm (emotionally in this case)

i agree with the possible strategies to work with this to try to improve

- writing dad a letter
- helping her understand his vulnerability and short comings without criticising him
- working with step mum to enable joint contact with her half sister
- working with the counsellor to continue to support her (extremely valuable resource)

but ultimately if this behaviour continues for much longer, then mum may need to step in to protect and i would suggest doing this by applying to court (you dont need representation or money to do this) for specified access, ordered by court. as a police officer it will impact on him if he breaches any order by not turning up at specified times, cancelling etc etc this may be enough to make contact more consistent

however, in the very long term if even that doesnt work, the op may not even need to prevent contact, as M may vote with her feet in time and decide he has let her down too many times

what happened today anyway OP?

RadoJo

mum2one wrote: »

Hope you don't think I'm being cheeky, but I just wanted to say a big thank you - I'm guessing you've seen it through the eyes as a child being in the situation, and your the other side of the coin.
You've mad things clearer for me, as dd ocassionally mentions her dad, only becoz the last time he "kicked off" the police were involved, I'd sent her upstairs to play while I spoke to the police and gave a statement, but she came down to fetch some stuff from the dining room, (unknown to me at the time) and obviously overheard part of the conversation, then she had the be safe lecture, it was so hard as in one breath I was saying go out and ride your bike, but the other, someone has to be out there with you. She asked was her dad violent..... and I try to answer the best I can, but from your post, needs to be a degree of honeslty even at a simple level. x

Hi Mum2One - I'm really glad to have been able to help! I was one of the first kids in my school to have divorced parents, just as it was becoming more commonplace, so whenever I see these kinds of problems on the boards I try to offer the kid's perspective to parents going through the same thing. I also had a hard time with my Dad growing up and even more so now, but as I have got older (and theoretically more mature!) I have also come to appreciate my Mum much more for how she handled things.

In general though, from my own experience and that of my friends, kids work out who was there for them. Of course all parents make mistakes, but kids are canny and can generally differentiate the mistakes that were made out of love or trying to be protective from the ones made out of selfishness and thoughtlessness. Even if your DD has picked up on something which you hoped she wouldn't, I'm sure you'll be able to explain it to her in a way she understands, and she clearly feels able to come to you with any questions she has so I'm sure you'll know what level of detail she is ready for.

kazmc

puddy wrote: »

to all those saying that at 9, she is old enough to make her own decisions about this, i would urge caution.

that age is right on the threshold for this situation, of being able to make her own decisions but also still needing to be protected from harm (emotionally in this case)

i agree with the possible strategies to work with this to try to improve

- writing dad a letter
- helping her understand his vulnerability and short comings without criticising him
- working with step mum to enable joint contact with her half sister
- working with the counsellor to continue to support her (extremely valuable resource)

but ultimately if this behaviour continues for much longer, then mum may need to step in to protect and i would suggest doing this by applying to court (you dont need representation or money to do this) for specified access, ordered by court. as a police officer it will impact on him if he breaches any order by not turning up at specified times, cancelling etc etc this may be enough to make contact more consistent

however, in the very long term if even that doesnt work, the op may not even need to prevent contact, as M may vote with her feet in time and decide he has let her down too many times

what happened today anyway OP?

This post is spot on, thankyou.
I really didnt realise that I as the primary carer could apply to a court to make the access arrangements. I just thought I would have to stop contact and then he would take me to court to get the access back.
I dont want to stop access I just want him to turn up when he says he will and if I have the option of a court getting him (hopefully) to fulfill this then wonderful.
It kind of makes me feel a little more in control of the situation knowing that that is an option.

The only problem with trying to arrange access jointly with Ms half sister is that her stepmum refuses to let her daughter see their dads new GF! Its all such a mess and I really thought I was doing the right thing letting M meet her because at the beginning Maddi drew pictures of her as a monster but now she is happy seeing her which is good?? although now I'm wondering if I have done the right thing?? Because her dad tries to play everyone of against each other and tells different stories to stepmum, M, me and half-sister its like a powderkeg waiting to go off!
Maddi found out from her stepmum that daddy was living with girlfriend in North London when he had told her the week before he was living with his male friend in South London!

Anyway he turned up tonight (breath a sigh of relief) and Maddi was so excited bless her. She asked me not to talk to him or say anything to him about what had happened so I stayed in the living room when she went but I did tell her I would talk to him when he bought her home.

puddy

you sound an excellent parent, i have worked with parents for years and contact is not always supported by the mother in these circumstances and i can totally understand why but its a process that needs working on

yes, you can apply for court to ask for particular contact on the basis that father is being too inconsistent and this is having an affect on the child

the court may initially ask that the 2 of you have mediation, this will only work if both want it and are going to make use of it

failing that they may then ask a duty CAFCASS worker to give their opinion on the suggested contact. in this case, all parties and the child agrees that contact should take place, the only concern is that its not being stuck to and this is causing the child harm, therefore there is little point in a CAFCASS worker being asked by the court to speak to M, however the court may ask this and you mustnt be scared of this, it will be to get Ms opinion for the court so that the judge can make an informed decision.

however, as i say, please try other options first, but i would maybe say to dad 'look, would it be easier for us to have a structured contact schedule, would you find it easier if this was ordered by the court? or do you want us to continue like this? please bear in mind ex partner, that if we carry on like this im concerned about OUR daughter's future relationship with you because she often feels let down and confused'

as hard as it is, sound like you're being helpful to him (which you are) and be prepared for him to be defensive

kazmc

mum2one wrote: »

Kazmac - Your doing an absolutely wonderful job, and your an inspiration, with everything you have been through, most people would want to put the knife it, but you have done everything to bend overbackwards for ex-hubby.

Your daughter has to come 1st in all this, which from your posts, screams out that is what you are doing, I guess it was easier for me as dd has had no contact, so she has not missed out but whereas your daughter has. Not meaning to sound horrible about your ex, but a concern for me would be this wondering off moments that he has, - ok he may be stressed, he hasn't got the easiest job in the world. But what you have to think is, if M was with him say for an overnight visit, and he had one of his walkouts - that could and I would really knock her for 6, obviously there may be a pattern to his behaviour, but he is a parent, he has responsibilities, not just when they suit. As the other poster said, - In a way it was an eye opener as she had obviosuly been in the position similiar to your daughter, but to get a prospective from someone who has been there, makes me more inclined to say the visiting needs to be knocked on the head for now, and get M back on the straight and narrow.
Please take care, I do apologise for hacking into your thread, x

Dont be daft about hacking this thread, thats what its for - for everyone who has similar problems and experiences to share their thoughts. My situation really isnt much different to yours, we all want to protect our children as much as possible, its a natural instinct. Its when we have to hand over a bit of control or make difficult decisions that its helpful to have a chat with others who can shed a different light on things.
I hate with a passion whats going on right now and really feel out of control over situations but I have to try and not pass those feelings onto M and make her anxious.
For example.... her dad and stepmum booked a holiday to Florida over a year ago, obviously including M. I thought long and hard whether to let her go but she had been on holidays with them many times before and although I didnt really know the stepfamily I trusted them as they had been very good to M over the years. I couldnt afford to take her somewhere like that so what a fantastic opportunity for her. He also mentioned it to M before me so I was fighting a losing battle if I was to say no.
But obviously now dad isnt going but M still really wants to go so in 3 weeks time I have to wave her off for 2 weeks in Florida without me or her dad! I feel sick to my stomach at the thought and am so cross that once again his actions have made me make the most awful of decisions.
I suppose I've put up with it for 9 years now so should learn to live with it!!
I'm no different to you and certianly wouldnt say im anything of an inspiration, I'm just bumbling along really!! But thankyou for your kind words.....

kazmc

RacyRed wrote: »

This is so unhealthy. Maybe she would find it easier to express her anger to her Dad if it is on behalf of her younger sister than for herself?

That is such a clever idea, I will have a think how to approach that with M, she may well talk to him on 'behalf' of her little sister. Thankyou