Student Protest/Riots

popadom

rolleypolleypud wrote: »

If people don't want to come out of uni with debt and find the terms of student loans unfair then don't go.
University shouldn't be a free ride and maybe if the cost involved are higher it will stop some students doing pointless degrees in pointless subjects ie is acient greek really going to benefit you when looking for a job in the uk?

I think youve hit the nail on the head.. it shouldnt be a free ride-if you dont like it dont go . After all the goverment keeps saying the grads will get high paid jobs, so it shouldnt be a worry really if you have x amount of debt,as youll be able to pay it off with your "high paying" job

popadom

ickypimp wrote: »

You got the same chance as every other British citizen, you chose not to take the opportunity to go to university.

I didnt get the mouth breathing chav sluts of the UK pregnant yet i pay for them to drag up their vile spawn...

I didnt stick a needle in the junkies arm but i pay for their methadone...

I didnt star a war in Afghanistan, but i am paying for the bombs and bullets...

I didnt cause the banking crisis in the UK but i am facing increased taxes for less public services...

So... funding the above OR funding young, motivated kids who have aspirations to be engineers, scientists, doctors, solicitors, architects, economists etc... I know where i would choose to put the money.
Graduates already pay for their education, we pay income tax as a proportion of our salary.. the more you earn the more you pay...

The Tories are doing what the Tories do ... looking after the wealthy, i am just waiting for the workhouses to be re-opened..

I think we need more displays of our outrage if civil disobedience makes the point then... though i dont condone violent behavior or the destructive behavior exhibited at Millbank, but i dont think for a moment that they rioters were anything to do with the legitimate protest... they were the rent a mob crew that turn up at many of these do's and kick off...

we are being bum raped by Cameron and his crew and it appears most of you are willing to bend over, apply the KY and take it like his prison wife...

These monkeys work for us... i think we forget that...

Actually, i left home at 16,so it was go to uni or have a roof over my head...i think i did the right choice.

If you want to go to uni-go ahead, i just dont want to pay for someone to go, id rather see my money go into hosiptials or degrees for things like nursing not "media studies"..

I did have sympathy, but as i know students who would go along to these events as "its what students do" i dont have sympathy, half of them dont even know what theyre fighting for..so untill they understand that:
they wont have to pay till they earn over 21,000 (it was 15,000)
then i dont have sympathy

popadom

Louisdf wrote: »

Learn to use a spell checker before you put your 2 cents in. It's sympathy not simpathy. Have you even tried to study Ancient Greek? I can assure you, you need to be very intelligent to study it and have a good command of the English language (something you clearly don't have.) The only places you can study it are at Oxford, Cambridge, Durham etc. which you can only dream about getting your foot in the door. I do agree that degrees like Circus Studies, Lady Gaga and golf need to be justified in the current economic climate, but I can assure you that most UK students are NOT doing these courses. The only reason you hear about them in the media is because they are extremely rare. A few pointless courses should not justify making everyone else who has spent years trying to get into University to do courses in long-standing and well-respected subjects suffer unnecessarily. You are an embarrassment to the British education system with your narrow and unsupported views.

You certainly sound very rude. Dont drag an indivuial people into it.You may be intelligent but you dont have maners!

just because you can do a greek degree dosnt make you "smart" there are diffrent types of smart,emotional intelligece-which you dont have.

I dont like people who think they are so smart for doing a degree...How is ancient greek releviant to the current ecomic climate.. i mean i dont think an office is going to say"yes, of course well employ you".

organic_choc

jonnyd281 wrote: »

Incidently I always thought that universities were research institutions that did the teaching to fund the research, with lectures meant to re-enforce self study, you do after all read a subject and are not taught it.

No this unfortunately is not the case. I work in a supposingly "research only" department in a university, not just that we have to obtain every penny of our funding through grants and government consultancy contracts at which we charge rates that is a fraction of what private sector consultancies like PWC charges. My research only dept also has to contribute to teaching in the university. Right now I am taking a break from second marking MSc course essays.

Financially we are stuck between a rock and a hard place - despite earning our keep thru grant and contract money we have to spend money the way our university has agreed with its suppliers due to some crazy procurement legislation saying that public sector entities must buy in bulk from agreed suppliers. e.g. if we find the same biro selling cheaper online we aren't allowed to buy it, we must buy it at four time the prices through university approved suppliers. If we need to buy a non-standard computer for conducting the research we need to do to complete our consultancy work, it's an uphill struggle against the IT dept becoz the uni has already bulk bought dozens of bog standard PCs which just wouldn't do the job and the IT dept are at their wits ends trying to shove them onto people's desks. I was once told to spend several hundred pounds extra on a plane ticket only so that we can comply to the legislation by buying through the university appointed travel company instead of booking it online. It was out of my grant budget for which I care greatly how every penny was spent and I had to have a shouting match with an administrator to get them to back down from this position.

Currently most research in university aren't really "funded", i.e. we aren't paid for the hours that we spend working and writing on our research ideas. University staff are required to work close to 100% on teaching and admin. In fact one of the recently internally administered workload survey in my uni only asked about teaching delivered to UG and Master students. Supervision provided to PhD students are not counted, nor are preparation hours for any courses counted. Hours spent on marking and grading don't count either.

Why do universities take this kind of accounting method? That's because research don't earn university profits, whereas teaching (esp overseas students) do. Universities bosses don't make more money the university buildings don't get kept at a decent state because we do good research - even at Full Economic Costing research grants only cover pay and bits and pieces of equipments and travel - but teaching makes money for the university where then the administrators can get a share thru pay and/or spend on procuring stuff (e.g. bog standard PCs). Publishers of journals also take a massive cut. 9000 pounds tuition fees may sound a lot - but it is hardly not enough to buy one year's site access to one journal.

So you may wonder how are research funded these days. Research is now "funded" by university staff working overtime hours, much like amateur marathon runners training after work and over weekends, except that we are supposed to run at the level of Olympics.

organic_choc

jonnyd281 wrote: »

I absolutely would, given that I had to start paying my student loans back when I earnt more than £16,000 p/a, which given I started on £18,000 meant straight away, under the new proposals they don't have to until they earn £21,000 p/a. And surely £9,000 in exceptional circumstances since the normal cap is £6,000) is better than unlimited fees, which is what was recommended. A few years paying off the loan is easily outweighed by the earning potential I have in the next 30 years. Incidently I'm currently paying for my MSc myself without any loans etc.

For info my parents didn't earn a great deal however both my sister and I didn't get grants so had to work part time and during the holidays to give us some money to pay for things like books, and that was on top of our studies.

How much are you paying for your MSc in fees? If you have managed to pay £12,000-18,000 a year in fees and have done so without borrowing you must be rich, afterall the median income in this country is around £25,000 before tax. If you are only paying something like £3,000 that is because you are currently at the receiving end of a highly (state) subsidised education. Eitherway I don't think your experience give any support to your argument that the financial arrangements as laid out by the Browne's report is acceptable even to the poor.

WhiteHorse

bratz81 wrote: »

For example, a friend of mine studied American History for his 4 year degree.

A: "I'm studying American History".
B: "And what will you do in the afternoon?".

Sorry, old joke but couldn't resist.

Rosemary7391

I think that education should be free to those who would benefit from it - as the country as a whole benefits from having an educated workforce, and research etc.

I do not see how raising tuition fees will help, if the government simply lends money to students to pay the fees. Short term, there is no reduction in cost to the government, and long term, if student debt rises to, say, £40k (not at all over exaggerated, especially for 4 year courses!) and repayment starts at £21k, these debts will take a very long time to pay off. I think I also saw on Martin's blog that overpayments would not be allowed and the debt would be wiped after 30 years? (Please correct me if I'm wrong) but in that case, students have debt hanging over them for 30 years and the government never gets most of the money back. What is the point then?

If University funding does need cutting (and I can see why this is the case) surely it is better to stop funding as many places? Then we could fund the courses/departments and research that is most beneficial to the country.

The rioting hasn't helped matters at all. I really am glad I didn't go to the protest, I just wish other students could protest properly. A small number has ruined it for most of us...

Louisdf

rgay1992 wrote: »

You certainly sound very rude. Dont drag an indivuial people into it.You may be intelligent but you dont have maners!

just because you can do a greek degree dosnt make you "smart" there are diffrent types of smart,emotional intelligece-which you dont have.

I dont like people who think they are so smart for doing a degree...How is ancient greek releviant to the current ecomic climate.. i mean i dont think an office is going to say"yes, of course well employ you".

I never said I could do Greek, but I know it's very difficult, and many people (myself included) would be too scared to take it up as it would be an incredibly complex subject to do.

Once the number of graduates shoots down, and the economy goes tits up in 2-3 years here whilst everyone else's economy is booming then you can all pat yourselves on the back. I'll be out of the country, but don't complain because you got your own way and what you voted for.

Louisdf

bratz81 wrote: »

I have some sympathy for students graduating with big debts. I was lucky enough to not have to pay fees when I was at university in 2000-2004, coming from a one parent family, however I took out the student loan and am paying that back now, which I am more than happy to do.

I come from a very poor family, and am glad I got to go to university. But I got there through good grades, and having to pay fees wouldn't put me off. I would work and save, or take a loan/grant to pay them and pay it back after graduating, which is what students have the choice of doing now I believe.

Too many people go to university now, and degrees are becoming meaningless, and in no way guarantee you a better job. Too many people also do degrees which have no benefit or meaning career wise. For example, a friend of mine studied American History for his 4 year degree. He's now working in Tesco, and cannot get a job using his degree, unless he decides to become a teacher and does a PGCE. Which he doesn't want to do as he's sick studying. So, a 4 year degree, a waste of time and the money spent on fees. He could have got a job in Tesco straight from school.

When I decided to go to university, I wanted to do a degree in something career related/useful. I studied Computer Science, and have a career in IT now. But what I've found, and many others, is that a degree may get you in a job when you graduate, but after that, most employers want experience and so now my degree isn't really looked at. Some might call that a waste.

My opinion at the moment is that, no one wants debt, whether student debt or credit card debt. We'd all rather not have to pay big fees. But, if the government can't afford to pay uni fees then they can't afford it. I also think uni is an investment in your future and you should contribute to paying it, whether that is all fees or part fees.

It's not the case that the Government can't keep fees as they are, it's just that they don't want to. Everywhere else in Europe, despite this 'economic debt crisis', Governments are continuing to support free or low cost higher education. It doesn't matter what the state of the economy is in, this Government only wants the rich to go to University and so the economy is merely an excuse. Why aren't they focusing on cutting their unjustifiable salaries and perks, and stopping companies evading millions of pounds in tax every year? You keep going on about useless degrees, but that shouldn't mean that everyone doing legitimate courses (e.g. History, Chemistry, French etc.) should therefore suffer.

Louisdf

vikingaero wrote: »

Degrees aren't the magic be all and end all of life.

Some people think that because they have gone to University and got a piece of paper that makes them intelligent. I have to sit on interview panels and listen to a lot of dross who think they are self important because they have a degree. A degree nowadays is as useless as GCSE's and A-Levels where you have forget-what-you-have-learnt modules. This self-aggrandisement by degree holders who have simply gone to Uni gets them nowhere. If you want to stand out go to Uni, get a degree, and do something worthwhile whilst you're there, or I simply won't consider you are worthy.

Back on topic - the state pays for your basic education from 4/5 to 16/18. Anything after that should be paid for by you. It's an investment. If you think you have the ability then return on your fees should be worth it.

Since when did these people you have spoken to represent all students?