Dismissed from job - future employment prospects?

geek84

Hi Folks

About 8 months ago, I got dismissed from my office job. The jist of the story is that our company got taken over by new owners in October/November 2009, and as a result, more pressure was put on my manager (who was the one who dismissed me), to improve performance etc. In turn, he put more pressure on me. Anyway, although I had been with the company for about 2 years, he put me on a 3 month probation review, during which I was to improve my work performance. We had weekly meetings (and 'friendly' arguments), about the way in which my performance was being measured. The only 'fault' and I very much regret it now, is that I did not keep records of these meetings.

At the end of the 3 months he dismissed me. His reason was that I did not improve my performance significantly in the 3 month period. His comments were that I can do the job but I am lazy and couldn't be bothered to improve my performance. I had a good mind to appeal against the decision but obviously for this type of thing you need witnesses etc, and work colleagues were not prepared to support me in fear of loosing their own jobs. After being dismissed, I then decided to do an accountancy course (to improve my job prospects for the future). Now that I am coming to the end of my accountancy course, I am thinking of applying for jobs.

My question is - Would I need to give the details of my previous employer (who sacked me), as a reference? if so, obviously they would state that I was dismissed and on the grounds of being 'lazy', and obviously that would affect my chances of gaining employment in the future.

If I do not give the details of this previous employment, then I somehow have to give details of how I spent the last 2 years.

Finally, is there such a thing as a 'verbal' reference. I am told that employers cannot give you a 'bad' reference, but there is nothing stopping them from picking up the phone and telling a future employer exactly what they think of the candidate.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Emmzi

they can absolutely give you a "bad" reference as long as it is factual. For example

"geek84 was not kept on after an extended probationary period because we felt his work did not meet the stabndards required" would be legal.

you can choose who to give as references but future employer may specifically ask for last employer and it will look odd if you don't.

tizerbelle

Unless the company you are applying to specifically asks for a reference from your previous employer, then no you don't need to list them as a reference.

If applying by CV I wouldn't even bother putting any referee details on it (not even the "available on request" bit) - if the company you are applying for want referee details they will ask you.

I wouldn't necessarily remove them from your employment history though - as you say over 2 years is a big gap but you don't have to give the full postal address and telephone number either. You can just say XYZ Company, Town or even just XYZ Company (no town).

This myth about can't give bad reference is just that - a myth! All references given have to be factual and objective, but this can be good or bad depending on the reference given and what informaiton is contained (or sometimes not contained).

A referee does not have to give a reference if they don't want to; they could give just dates of employment or they could give more details. It's up to them. They could say "geek84 was employed by us as a [job title] from date x to date y. geek84 was dismissed on grounds of capability."

It is not unheard of for hiring companies to ring for an off the record chat and there is nothing you can do about this and if this should result in you not getting a job there is even less you can do unless you can prove the conversation happened and the actual contents of the conversation and that it was the reason you didn't get the job but you'll never get that evidence and unless the new employer has decided against you for a reason covered under discrimination protection it won't get you anywhere anyway.

However it is not all doom and gloom:
- many companies won't respond to a verbal request for a reference as they want to ensure that it is not taken out of context so will only do it in writing - don't forget they don't know the hiring company from adam (most of the time) so won't know whether it is "safe" to have an off the record chat or whether it will come back and bite them in the posterior.
- not all companies take up references in the first place
- your old employer may not respond to the reference request and your new employer may not care / chase it up.

If you do have to have them as a reference then do not give your old line managers name, give the referee details as the HR department/manager and their address - which may well be a different site to where you were located (depends on size of company). It is not uncommon that the policy on references for employers is that they have to be sent to and managed by the HR department. You do not have to name your old line manager - that way he may be kept out of it entirely.

liney

An employer can give a "bad" reference as long as it's fact, not opinion.

Many companies decline to confirm anything other then dates and position and go straight to and from HR. Why don't you ask HR what kind of reference the company provides?

Feed_The_Reaper

Your dismissal seems unfair and should have had you investigate wrongful dismissal. If your work was considered acceptable for 2 years and then not you should have asked for clear goals to target, and if you were given goals that were clearly unobtainable then you were set up and that is wrongful dismissal.

If you didnt fight it, or you cant find a reason to argue it, then sadly you will have to tell the truth. It wouldnt look good to have a gap of 2 years thats unexplainable, but you shouldnt put on the form the reason why you left.

At the end of the day, the application itself will make or break you from having an interview and a sheet saying "sacked" wont get picked over a sheet saying "redundant" or similar.

So put your employer down and the times worked and get to the interview stage before you explain why your not with them.

Then in the interview, they will probably ask you why you left and which you can tell them the truth and hope your character and personality shines through. You wont be the first person to be fired unfairly and if the interviewer can see your keen to work, appear to be hardworking in other aspects of your life and are motivated they may just consider it an employer/employee dispute in that particular company and disregard it..... alternatively they may not accept you because of it, its a risk you got to take but one that is easier to overcome face to face than it is on a form trying to get an interview.

Alternatively, you could just say that you left the company over a dispute over the new management/owners unachievable work goals placed upon you, and that you decided to branch out into accountancy which is your big love and try to achieve something in that field. Make it sound like it was your idea to leave after so many years because the working practices were unacceptable, unachievable and harmful to your career if you stayed with them. How you want to throw all that energy and enthusiasm into this new line of career and really shine for them blah blah blah.

Then if they ask for a reference, you just got to hope that they just say you were there for 2 years and with no particular issue. Hopefully not mentioning they let you go, or that they somehow word it in a way that you can claim it was a joint agreement for you leaving, rather than them giving you the flick themselves!

Once you manage to get employed elsewhere, you should be able to put the whole past behind you as the newer more relevant employer will be the one getting the reference and you will be able to stick the finger up to your unfair employer once and for all!

Good luck

geek84

Hi Folks

I am extremely grateful for all your valuable advice so far.

tizerbelle You mention that hopefully the line manger will be kept out of the loop and that the reference (stating the briefiest of details) will be supplied by the HR dept. I can see your point, however, the company I worked for is 'small' and HR person and the line manager have got a very 'close' business relationship, and so I don't think HR will supply me with an reference without the manager's knowledge.

liney You mention that I could try contacting the HR dept, to find out what type of reference they might provide and how they will word it. If I do decide to go down that route, would you advice that I phone/email/ or write to them?

Finally, I did consider that, but, I will have no way of knowing that they are telling me the truth!

Feed The Reaper You have adviced not to state on an application form that I got dismiased. So, do you advice that I should write 'redundant' or 'left by mutual consent' etc? If so, a future employer could take action against me for lying on the application form?

Many Thanks for any further advice. I most appreciate it.

Feed_The_Reaper

It depends on the job your going for, if its what i class as an important job, such as one needing a CRB check i would advise against anything about lying.... but if it was McDonalds, i would lie through my teeth cos its hardly worth the hassle for them to check if you lied and its not effecting anyone how you toss your burger!!

But if you value the future employer and worry about being sacked at a later date, then maybe just have to be honest and stick on dismissed, but only if there is absolutely no way at all you can find an alternative to sticking on it. Because there is a fine balance between them finding out about it at a later date and sacking you for lying on your CV.... and them not even bothering to give you the job in the first place because your labelled "sacked!" on the form!

Might be a consideration sticking "dismissed - pending unfair dismissal claim" on it and then stating that you are considering pursuing them for unfair dismissal and tell them why..... but to be honest, that probably looks just as bad as dismissed because no only did you get sacked, but your looking to sue them over it too, which labels u as "sacked + troublemaker"

Certainly dont envy you if its a job you are really keen on applying for!

geek84

Thanks Feed The Reaper.

The type of jobs I am applying for are low level (clerical) and credit control (debt collection) accountancy jobs. Is the above advice which you have so kindly given still relevant for these types of jobs?

Thank You.

RedSoleShoes

geek84 wrote: »

The type of jobs I am applying for are low level (clerical) and credit control (debt collection) accountancy jobs. Is the above advice which you have so kindly given still relevant for these types of jobs?

Why are you applying for low-level jobs when you have a degree? Are you still studying for AAT?

geek84

Hi

Yes, I do have a degree but this was completed over 20 years ago, and some career advisors have stated that it is 'worthless' now. Plus, my degree was a 'general' all round one, rather than in a specific subject. Also, I completed it at one of the old polytechnics. I have been working in accounts for the last 10 years doing credit control (debt collection). I want to move away from that and hence started the AAT. I have got quite a bit to go before completing the course. I enjoy working with numbers - hence first I was doing credit control and now studying for accountancy exams.

Thanks

liney

I'd just call and say something like "Excuse me, but potential employers may be contacting you for a reference in regards to my past employment. I wonder if you could tell me who it should be addressed to, and do you provide an indepth reference or just confirmation of employment?"

Why would they lie? I'm not into conspiracy theories