Right This Is My Story

henpecked1

citizens advice surely?

AllNancy

Emotionally I was all over the place last night so I'm sure judging from the puzzlement that I wasn't clear in the history of all this so I'm going to explain again.
Before I do I have received ANOTHER notice from Landlord Action covering Sections 8 and 21, This time my daughter's name is on it and the Section 21 date is December 31st. Rent is now £1,690. There is also a recorded delivery to both of us on its way. No idea what that is.

1. 1998.....Moved into cottage. Private landlord, Assured Shorthold Tenancy agreement changed to periodic.

2. 2004......Cottage purchased. Mortgage in SL's name. Rent paid directly to him. NO paperwork of ANY kind. Just paid.

3. 2004.......Divorce. Continued paying rent to him.

3. 2008.......CCJ. SL awarded £20K from divorce...to be paid by September 30th 2010. No payment, cottage to be sold. Daughter responsible for mortgage being paid. Still in HIS name. She is on the Land Registry.Paid rent to her and she paid it into HIS bank account. She has sayso on Estate Agent, Solicitor and Price but NOT on stopping sale. CCJ states it HAS to be sold.

4. 2010.......Business goes bust. New son in law and daughter and grandsons move to Australia. Rent payments continue but used to buy food, money very tight. She doesn't have it to pay him.
Court process begins.

Ex SL insists I owe rent but don't. Bank statements prove this. But he wants me out anyway so that he can sell.

Warning: Ex son in law is totally illogical and driven by the desire for control.

Question: Does he take me to court twice...once for the Section 8 and once for the Section 21?

Hope that clarifies the situation. Far more with it today. lol


Nancy

sonastin

Do the bank statements show that the rent has been paid to the ex-SIL? If so, he can't win on a S8 because there are no arrears.

Where is your daughter's name on todays notices? As T or LL? As far as I understand, she is neither so why is her name on the notices?

G_M

And yet daughter : "is on the Land Registry." That makes her the landlord, or joint LL. So if rent is paid to her, rent has been paid.

Get daughter to write a letter stating that she has received rent. That there are no arrears. Attach a copy of the Land Registry Title showing she owns the property (whether soley or jointly does not matter). Send both to court.

That proves the tenant has paid rent to the LL (or A LL if joint owners) therefore there are no arrears.

If SIL wants money he'll have to chase daughter, NOT tenant, who has already paid rent to daughter.

Jowo_2

henpecked1 wrote: »

citizens advice surely?

This, I reckon, is far too complex for their remit.

To the OP - did the court judgement specifically order the property to be sold to pay the 20k debt? Because if so, many landlords prefer the property with vacant possession before putting it on the market as having a tenant in place can be tricky.

A CCJ usually has to be followed up with a separate court action to enforce it if the defendent doesn't pay. A CCJ in itself isn't enough to trigger the sale of a property directly, as far as I know. A creditor can apply for an order of sale but this isn't necessarily granted.

http://coopermatthews.com/articles/2010/How-will-a-County-Court-Judgement-affect-my-home.html
http://www.insolvencyhelpline.co.uk/debt_factsheets/charging_orders_in_the_county_court.php#10

Also, is he owed rent and how many months (if paid monthly). You keep saying none is owed because you've paid your daughter but then say your daughter spent it on living expenses and appears not to have forwarded it to the SIL. So is he actually owed money because the court requires him to now receive the rent and your daughter has failed to direct your rental payment to him?

If the SIL goes to court after the expiry of the notice under the S21 notice, if the judge determines it was correctly served, he is obliged to give possession of the property to the landlord.

If the SIL goes to court via the S8, again the judge has no discretion. If at the time of serving the S8, and at the time of the court case 2 months rent is owed (if paid monthly), the judge must give possession to the landlord.

Your SIL has a belt and braces approach so if one fails, the other notice is to hand.

AllNancy

sonastin wrote: »

Do the bank statements show that the rent has been paid to the ex-SIL? If so, he can't win on a S8 because there are no arrears.

Where is your daughter's name on todays notices? As T or LL? As far as I understand, she is neither so why is her name on the notices?

Rent paid to daughter.

Pass. I told you he was illogical. Plus she's in Australia. Landlord Action are obviously not advising him or he hasn't told them. Possible.

Jowo_2

AllNancy wrote: »

Rent paid to daughter.

So you keep saying but is your SIL legally the landlord? Are you obliged by the terms of the court or the ownership of the property to pay it directly to him? You've made it clear that your daughter was broke and spent the rental money on living expenses.

A tenant can give their rent money to anyone they like and prove they've passed it on via rent statements but if the actual legal landlord demonstrates that he hasn't received it, then the rent is still owed!

Stop being vague and evasive.

The S8 route for eviction is serious. If the SIL is the legal landlord, and he can prove that the rent has not been received (because you chose to pay it to someone else who was not his authorised agent), and you then get evicted, the local council could turn down your homelessness application on the grounds that you made yourself intentionally homeless because your actions led to the landlord serving you notice for rent arrears.

Jowo_2

AllNancy wrote: »

...I told you he was illogical. Plus she's in Australia. Landlord Action are obviously not advising him or he hasn't told them. Possible.

He's not necessarily being illogical.

Notice to quit is routinely served on tenants who have absconded the property as they have legal possession of the property even if they are not physically occupying it.

A landlord seeking possession of the property only has to prove in court that they served their notices correctly to the address and doesn't have to demonstrate that the tenant has actually opened and read the documentation.

If the landlord is granted possession of the property in court for the named tenant, this applies to all occupants, therefore if he enforces a possession order by returning to court and getting court appointed bailiffs to empty the house, they will clear it of all occupants, whether named on the tenancy or not.

If the SIL is the legal owner/landlord, you cannot hope to go to court and say the action doesn't apply because your daughter is overseas....

AllNancy

Jowo wrote: »

This, I reckon, is far too complex for their remit.

To the OP - did the court judgement specifically order the property to be sold to pay the 20k debt? Because if so, many landlords prefer the property with vacant possession before putting it on the market as having a tenant in place can be tricky. Yes..that's why he's trying to get me out.

A CCJ usually has to be followed up with a separate court action to enforce it if the defendent doesn't pay. A CCJ in itself isn't enough to trigger the sale of a property directly, as far as I know. A creditor can apply for an order of sale but this isn't necessarily granted.
No separate court action. Just eviction

http://coopermatthews.com/articles/2010/How-will-a-County-Court-Judgement-affect-my-home.html
http://www.insolvencyhelpline.co.uk/debt_factsheets/charging_orders_in_the_county_court.php#10

Also, is he owed rent and how many months (if paid monthly). You keep saying none is owed because you've paid your daughter but then say your daughter spent it on living expenses and appears not to have forwarded it to the SIL. So is he actually owed money because the court requires him to now receive the rent and your daughter has failed to direct your rental payment to him? Yes

If the SIL goes to court after the expiry of the notice under the S21 notice, if the judge determines it was correctly served, he is obliged to give possession of the property to the landlord.
Yes
If the SIL goes to court via the S8, again the judge has no discretion. If at the time of serving the S8, and at the time of the court case 2 months rent is owed (if paid monthly), the judge must give possession to the landlord.
Deadline is November 8th. for S8. How long after this will there be court?
Your SIL has a belt and braces approach so if one fails, the other notice is to hand.

Yes...that's what I assumed. Bless him


Nancy

RacyRed

Nancy, you need to find out from your daughter if your ex SIL was due any of the rent money you paid to her. EDIT - I see you have answered that one above.

As you do not have a rentbook or a formal contract, I'd think you also urgently need her to write you a "to whom it may concern" letter stating clearly that you have paid all of the rent due up to the date of the letter.

But I'd think the only way to stop the forced sale of the property is to find £20,000 + outstanding rent and pay it to him fast.

If the sale goes ahead I assume he gets £20,000 and your daughter gets the rest?

Is it possible for your daughter to get the £20,000 by arranging an equity release on the property?