New Guide Discussion: Everyone needs ESTA for US travel

scottishperson2

chelsea1905 wrote: »

My family are currently travelling under ESTA (expires in 2013). We are on an extended holiday skiing our way accross North America. We first arrived into Orlando from the UK on 5th January. Our passports were stamped with the exit date of 3rd April (90 days). On 9th January we left the USA for Canada where my son has remained since, and my wife and I have been in and out of Canada and the USA a few times since visiting various ski resorts. we are currently in Canada, and have been this last 33days. On 31 March we are reuniting with our son in Vancouver and we intend to go to the Hawaiin Islands for two weeks, returning to Los Angeles when we will fly home to the UK on 15th April. The total length of our trip is circa 100 days. We keep being told by US officers that Canada does NOT count as having left the USA, so as far as they are concerned the 90 days is up on 3rd April. This means we might not get into Hawaii and we will be refused at pre-clearance in Vancouver? I can find nothing to say that Canada is deemed the USA?? Can anyone please elaborate our predicament. Will we get to Hawai or not??

You've been told correctly depending what info you told CBP.

Q: I am transiting through the U.S. on my way to another country. Can I use VWP?

A: Yes, as long as your total stay in the U.S., Canada, Mexico and adjacent islands is less than 90 days, and you meet the other VWP requirements. You can use the VWP if, for instance, you are transiting the U.S. on a journey between Australia and Europe.

However if for example you are transiting the U.S. on the way to a 6 month stay in Canada, you cannot use the VWP, as your total time in the U.S., Canada, Mexico and the adjacent islands will be over 90 days. In this case you should apply for a B-1/B-2 visitor visa, or a transit visa.

Embassy websites are often incorrect by the way and provide contradictory information.

CBP run this, and they state

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/194/~/visa-waiver-program---eligible-countries

While in the U.S., you may go to Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean and re-enter the U.S. using the I-94W you were issued when you first arrived in the U.S., although the time you spend there is included in the 90 days allotted for your visit.
If you go to Canada and Mexico or the Caribbean, and while you are there, your initial 90-day period of entry expires, but you need to come back in to the U.S. to fly home, you may encounter a problem. The terms of the VWP are very clear - it is only to be used for occasional, short visits to the U.S. If the CBP Officer thinks you are trying to "reset" the clock by making a short trip out of the U.S. and re-entering for another 90-day period, you can be denied entry. (If that happens, you will have to obtain a visa for any future travel to the U.S.) In order to be re-admitted to the U.S. shortly after a previous admission expired, you will have to convince a CBP Officer that you are not trying to "game" the system.

ferf1223

scottishperson2 wrote: »

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/752/~/i-still-have-my-i-94

You spent 33 days in Canada, so according to that you could have handed it in.

You don't get an I-94(W) anymore, do you? That was phased out after a period following ESTA coming in...

scottishperson2

ferf1223 wrote: »

You don't get an I-94(W) anymore, do you? That was phased out after a period following ESTA coming in...

My bad, I reread it

"We first arrived into Orlando from the UK on 5th January.":) so it wasn't a land crossing.

Saying that CBP updated that particular webpage on Updated 01/25/2012 12:10 PM so they obviously can;t keep up either.

jackieblack

chelsea1905 wrote: »

My family are currently travelling under ESTA (expires in 2013). We are on an extended holiday skiing our way accross North America. We first arrived into Orlando from the UK on 5th January. Our passports were stamped with the exit date of 3rd April (90 days). On 9th January we left the USA for Canada where my son has remained since, and my wife and I have been in and out of Canada and the USA a few times since visiting various ski resorts. we are currently in Canada, and have been this last 33days. On 31 March we are reuniting with our son in Vancouver and we intend to go to the Hawaiin Islands for two weeks, returning to Los Angeles when we will fly home to the UK on 15th April. The total length of our trip is circa 100 days. We keep being told by US officers that Canada does NOT count as having left the USA, so as far as they are concerned the 90 days is up on 3rd April. This means we might not get into Hawaii and we will be refused at pre-clearance in Vancouver? I can find nothing to say that Canada is deemed the USA?? Can anyone please elaborate our predicament. Will we get to Hawai or not??

This was reported last year. The couple had been into Canada and believed (wrongly) that they would get another 90 days on their re-entry to USA.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2006028/Barbara-Dixon-Richard-Cross-locked-U-S-visa-blunder.html

This seems quite clear
While in the U.S., you may go to Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean and re-enter the U.S. using the I-94W you were issued when you first arrived in the U.S., although the time you spend there is included in the 90 days allotted for your visit.

scottishperson2

jackieblack wrote: »

This seems quite clear
While in the U.S., you may go to Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean and re-enter the U.S. using the I-94W you were issued when you first arrived in the U.S., although the time you spend there is included in the 90 days allotted for your visit.

Not really, as you don't get an I-94W if you fly or sail into the US (and that page was updated on 01/25/2012 12:10 PM)

If taking short trips (30 days or less) to Canada, Mexico, or the Caribbean Islands during the course of your visit to the U.S., hold onto your I-94 or I-94 (W); it should only be turned in when you leave the U.S. to return home.

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/752/~/i-still-have-my-i-94

So if you are taking long trips you hand it in. :wall: (although the chances are when you come back in they should put you back on the original, not a new, 90 days)

Also question must be asked if his return flight home was more than 90 days after his arrival, how did he get in in the first place.

jackieblack

jackieblack wrote: »

This seems quite clear
While in the U.S., you may go to Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean and re-enter the U.S. using the I-94W you were issued when you first arrived in the U.S., although the time you spend there is included in the 90 days allotted for your visit.

scottishperson2 wrote: »

Not really, as you don't get an I-94W if you fly or sail into the US (and that page was updated on 01/25/2012 12:10 PM)

I was referring to the part in bold, from the link you provided

Although the paper I-94W has been replaced by ESTA for those arriving by air or sea, they both serve/d broadly the same function, ie admittance via the VWP, the terms of which allow for a visit of no longer than 90 days in total

scottishperson2

I was referring to the fact that CBP still state

"While in the U.S., you may go to Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean and re-enter the U.S. using the I-94W you were issued when you first arrived in the U.S., "

when you weren't issued one if arriving by sea or air. Also you could and can actually hand in the I-94W when leaving the US to go to Canada, on returning to the US you would be issued another I-94W, whether the dates would change is entirely pot luck. The chances are the couple in the daily mail went into Canada (if they did go to Canada) to reset the 90 days, got caught in a routine stop in Texas, and had to wait 5 weeks for a direct flight from El Paso to the UK. They tried to play the system and lost.

Also this question needs answered

"question must be asked if his return flight home was more than 90 days after his arrival, how did he get in in the first place."

jackieblack

scottishperson2 wrote: »

The chances are the couple in the daily mail went into Canada (if they did go to Canada) to reset the 90 days, got caught in a routine stop in Texas, and had to wait 5 weeks for a direct flight from El Paso to the UK. They tried to play the system and lost.

Exactly what I thought too

The bit that amused me was where she says she'll "never set foot in America again" - given that they were deported, she's probably quite correct!

scottishperson2 wrote: »

Also this question needs answered

"question must be asked if his return flight home was more than 90 days after his arrival, how did he get in in the first place."

Maybe the return flight was changed after they had entered USA?

The same question crossed my mind after reading chelsea1905's post - how were they let in (under VWP) on on 5th Jan if their return flight (from LA) is not until 15th April?

jackieblack

scottishperson2 wrote: »

I was referring to the fact that CBP still state

"While in the U.S., you may go to Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean and re-enter the U.S. using the I-94W you were issued when you first arrived in the U.S., "

Yes, bizarre, especially when the page has (apparently) been updated fairly recently

scottishperson2

"The couple plan to lodge a complaint with the Foreign Office."

I'd love to see the details of the complaint.

Dear Mr. Foreign Office,

We were illegally in the US, put in a detention centre until a flight home was available, then sent home. We were treated like criminals,

Yours in disgust.

Mr and Mrs Illegal Alien.

Can't see the US changing the law on that one.