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Brats these days
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I made the comment in part based on your title, and the vehemence with which you referred to children per se. There are without doubt many children who do not have the benefit of loving, nurturing parents who set boundaries. That is not the fault of the child, but rather a reflection on society and the lack of parenting skills, skills which are declining with every decade.
I don't like to see children referred to as "brats"or for them to be universally cast in the role of the transgressor, and find in the main that that kind of judgemental derogatory term is used by those without a biological bond to any child. You confirmed my suspicion.
I also usually find that those who are so judgemental of others across the board, have themselves usually something lurking in their own background which causes them to behave in this way, something they have no control over ,something they accept no personal responsibility for, even though others attribute that responsibility to them.
Anyway I may be completely wrong, you may be a pillar of society with no axe to grind, no abdication of responsiblity in your background, no feelings of being hard done to, you may feel the term brat to be justified from your limited experience wuth parenting. If so, I am sure you will tell me, but that is what I ( as an educational professional, mother of four well adjusted young adults )took from your opening diatribe.0 -
I made the comment in part based on your title, and the vehemence with which you referred to children per se. There are without doubt many children who do not have the benefit of loving, nurturing parents who set boundaries. That is not the fault of the child, but rather a reflection on society and the lack of parenting skills, skills which are declining with every decade.
I don't like to see children referred to as "brats"or for them to be universally cast in the role of the transgressor, and find in the main that that kind of judgemental derogatory term is used by those without a biological bond to any child. You confirmed my suspicion.
I also usually find that those who are so judgemental of others across the board, have themselves usually something lurking in their own background which causes them to behave in this way, something they have no control over ,something they accept no personal responsibility for, even though others attribute that responsibility to them.
Anyway I may be completely wrong, you may be a pillar of society with no axe to grind, no abdication of responsiblity in your background, no feelings of being hard done to, you may feel the term brat to be justified from your limited experience wuth parenting. If so, I am sure you will tell me, but that is what I ( as an educational professional, mother of four well adjusted young adults )took from your opening diatribe.
Nope. I had your average perfect family upbringing. Nor was i referring to all children as brats. Brat in itself means a badly behaved child so perhaps you need to take your gripe up with the dictionary? Nor did i say it was any fault of the childs, if you read my posts you'll see i do blame the parents (among others).
As for being used by people who have no biological link, there are plenty of parents who would descibe badly behaved children as brats, i know of at least 4 dozen. Perhaps its just different where you live in the country?
Also, just because i am not a biological parent does not mean that i have no biological link to any child, nor does it mean that my experience with parenting is limited. Rather shortsighted to imply otherwise IMO.You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride0 -
I am well aware what the term Brat" means, and the connotation, which is why I dislike the term so much, that, coupled with the fact that the thread was started in the vent board would seem to set the scene for your rant about the kids of today. It came across to me as written by someone who had little parenting experience and scant regard or understanding of the problems many people face with family life.
I have no idea how old you are, but suspect that whatever "parenting" experience you have had does not include raising a child from babyhood to adult hood, with all the phases that entails. I stand by my comment that your post instantly made me assume you had not actually borne a child, regardless of what other parenting you undertake. I cant quite put my finger on why but it was obvious to me.
When I queried your background I wasn't necessarily referring to your childhood, rather your early adulthood which is the formative time for becoming judgemental on the actions of others, perhaps your peers who have children.
When I think about it your post probably struck a chord with me because during my training I worked with someone who wrote a paper about childhood behaviour, and she used the same derogatory, hectoring language, and it stuck with me that she had formed that view and yet she was going into the education profession and working with many of those children/parents she obviously despised and had little respect for. That stance did not, and does not, seem to me to be a good base to start from to try to effect change.
Ironically, she had many issues worthy of judgement from others (she flitted from married man to married man, engaged in binge drinking, had loads of debt etc) yet she was oblivious to the fact that she was preaching and ranting in that academic paper about others, whilst taking no personal responsibility for the shortcomings in her own life. It did not sit well with me.
So, maybe my comments were actually prompted by the similarities I saw in the post to that paper? who knows!
Anyway, no offence intended, and as you tell me my background assessment is wide of the mark in your case, I will have to conclude the remnants of the past coloured my reading of your post.0 -
Maybe this should be in DT as it has turned into a discussion?0
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I'm not professing to know everything about parenting. Far from it.
But i do have a deep understanding of child psychology and how important the role of their parents/role model are.
I have seen parents who put their needs (ie getting drunk/high with their friends) above that of even feeding their kids. I have seen kids who feel a stronger bond with someone who is of no relation to them than that of their own parents. And tbh, knowing how i feel personally about the children i'm responsible for......i despair that someone can have so little regard for their own flesh and blood. And yes it is probable that they themselves had a bad upbringing, but not everyone follows the examples set by their parents. Some do manage to right past wrongs. However there are those that do have good parents and still turn out "bad".
Being a biological parent doesnt give you a different viewpoint - several people who are biological parents have agreed with my viewpoints.
As for the word brat......we're just going to have to agree to disagree i think as it is used pretty much in every day conversations here - again, may just be due to different locations. It can (and often is here) used as an expression of endearment - much as you might call your wife a battleaxe
Many parents feel bad as they cant give their kids everything they ask for and feel like a failure as a parent if they cant. Kids may sulk or even say they hate you.......but the great thing about kids is that they'll get over it quickly.
I was "venting" in particular about a few parents who live in my area who dont care what their kids get up to and will (as above) neglect their kids in favour of their "social life". Are they ever going to read this board? Probably not. Would i word it exactly as i have if i were trying to counsel them? No. But as you said......its a vent board. I was utilising the board for the purpose it was created.
Please excuse me for being slightly irate due to lack of sleep because of said "brats" having screaming competitions to see who is the loudest which can go on for hours, throwing tantrums, their mothers roaring (and yes, they scream at their children even though they are only a few feet away), falling off big metal bins and hurting themselves because their mothers dont object to them playing in bins (and yes, they go in the bins and chuck all the rubbish out) and in one instance.....i actually heard them encouraging their children to do so, damaging property of other residents oh and not to mention setting off car alarms because they keep smashing windows - which apparently their mothers dont object to either and even laugh when they do.
And we're not talking about pre-school children, the majority of these kids are 9-12. So its not like they wouldnt understand if their parents took the time to teach them.
It wouldnt make you angry or upset that kids are being treated/raised like that? Especially knowing how it will likely affect them later in life?
I often hear people "speak down" to kids as if they're dumb. They're not. Kids are a heck of a lot smarter than the majority of adults. Their capabilities to learn are astounding.You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride0 -
unholyangel wrote: »I'm not professing to know everything about parenting. Far from it.
But i do have a deep understanding of child psychology and how important the role of their parents/role model are.
I don't think ayone will argue against this, nor the fact that sadly many children are not fortunate enough to be exposed to good role models in their formative years.
I have seen parents who put their needs (ie getting drunk/high with their friends) above that of even feeding their kids. I have seen kids who feel a stronger bond with someone who is of no relation to them than that of their own parents. And tbh, knowing how i feel personally about the children i'm responsible for......i despair that someone can have so little regard for their own flesh and blood. And yes it is probable that they themselves had a bad upbringing, but not everyone follows the examples set by their parents. Some do manage to right past wrongs. However there are those that do have good parents and still turn out "bad".
Being a biological parent doesnt give you a different viewpoint - several people who are biological parents have agreed with my viewpoints.
I think we will have to agree to differ here also, do you not think it pertinent that I could tell immediately that you were not a biological parent?
As for the word brat......we're just going to have to agree to disagree i think as it is used pretty much in every day conversations here - again, may just be due to different locations. It can (and often is here) used as an expression of endearment - much as you might call your wife a battleaxe
I understand fully the common usage of the word, but you did not use it as a term of endearment, rather the opposite, and with a certain vehemence which seemed to imply the blame lay with the child.
Many parents feel bad as they cant give their kids everything they ask for and feel like a failure as a parent if they cant. Kids may sulk or even say they hate you.......but the great thing about kids is that they'll get over it quickly.
Very true, again, I doubt many would argue this point.
I was "venting" in particular about a few parents who live in my area who dont care what their kids get up to and will (as above) neglect their kids in favour of their "social life". Are they ever going to read this board? Probably not. Would i word it exactly as i have if i were trying to counsel them? No. But as you said......its a vent board. I was utilising the board for the purpose it was created.
Ah, then we understand the function of the boards differently, the usual function of this board to me is to vent against firms, poor service etc.
Please excuse me for being slightly irate due to lack of sleep because of said "brats" having screaming competitions to see who is the loudest which can go on for hours, throwing tantrums, their mothers roaring (and yes, they scream at their children even though they are only a few feet away), falling off big metal bins and hurting themselves because their mothers dont object to them playing in bins (and yes, they go in the bins and chuck all the rubbish out) and in one instance.....i actually heard them encouraging their children to do so, damaging property of other residents oh and not to mention setting off car alarms because they keep smashing windows - which apparently their mothers dont object to either and even laugh when they do.
And we're not talking about pre-school children, the majority of these kids are 9-12. So its not like they wouldnt understand if their parents took the time to teach them.
It wouldnt make you angry or upset that kids are being treated/raised like that? Especially knowing how it will likely affect them later in life?
Yes, it would/does make me unhappy, but I direct my ire at those responsible, not the product of that lack of parenting skills.
I often hear people "speak down" to kids as if they're dumb. They're not. Kids are a heck of a lot smarter than the majority of adults. Their capabilities to learn are astounding.
I very much agree with your last statement, they are also our future, they deserve to be treated as such and not written off by those who should know better, nor universally villified. Until we change the focus of who we perceive the blame to lie with, this circle will continue.
We are always quick to judge and not so quick to try to bring positives to bear. None of us is perfect, hold a mirror up to many of us and the reflection would not be so good, yet we berate others for their shortcomings. Perhapos if we concentrated on making our own lives fit to be emulated then the rest would fall into place.0 -
Nurture over nature.
It's true that kids have boundless energy, but this should be directed by parents. Lack of both constructive outlets and firm parenting results in these 'brats'. The individuals to blame, up to point of emotional maturity, are the parents.
Obviously that's not to say that environment plays a roll i.e. would expect children raised in rougher area's to be rougher themselves. However in these situations parents can uphold the concepts of respect and society.
To those judging the younger generation, which I am not far from, do not blame the child. For all you know they may not understand nor have ever been raised the concepts of society or right versus wrong.Hope For The Best, Plan For The Worst0 -
With all due respect, you initially thought i was not a parent at all and nor did i have parenting experience.
What you made was a guess. You had a 50% chance of getting it right - hardly an educated guess, never mind knowledge. Again, biological parents have agreed with me. It all comes down to your own personal experiences and how those have coloured your viewpoint. You also thought i had underlying issues, which we have already been through and found not to be the case - again.....pure speculation on your part.
And again with all due respect, you cannot hear the tone of my voice.......you are guessing on my usage of the word brat. It does not hold the same stength of negativity for me as it clearly does for you. I have no idea how you arrived at the conclusion that i implied the blame was with the child as my post then went on to basically slate bad parenting..................
I detest the word "!!!!!!" due to the meaning i have personally for it. But for other people, it is used as a joking insult between friends that doesnt even mean its definition. But i understand people regard words in different lights and wouldnt presume that i know in which regard they meant it.
As for the board, its in the "home & play" section. I have seen dozens of people vent about something that isnt a consumer issue.
You've clearly misunderstood the implications of my first post possibly - as you said - due to your own past experience. However, this is very easily (and all too common i'm afraid) when discussing in text only with no facial expressions or tone applied. Much as when reading a book, you make your own impressions/images etc. 2 people can read the exact same book and pick things up in a different light due to their own viewpoint.
The only person who can tell you for sure how it was meant as it was written is the author.You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride0 -
unholyangel wrote: »Does it annoy anyone else when a kid will stand screaming "mum" for 10 minutes rather than walk 20 yards into the house to talk to her?
Or when adults dont teach their kids proper manners? Such as the basic "please" and "thank you" ? I absolutely HATE when kids do the "i want......" then when you ask them to say please they'll say no. You tell them then you're not getting and they start throwing a tantrum while screaming "but i WANT it!!!"????
Nope not at all, I cant stand any kids, well behaved or not I like the Victorian attitude of children should be seen and not heard, I can just about tolerate the ones I am related to, but that can be a struggle at times, I recently spent the afternoon with 2 cousins who are 13 and 15 who have the attention spans of a distracted gnat. I wont be doing that again in a hurry.0 -
unholyangel wrote: »With all due respect, you initially thought i was not a parent at all and nor did i have parenting experience.
So, you are a parent? that is not what you said, you said you had parenting experience, that does not actually equate to the same thing. I suspect that you either mean you have step parenting experience or you act in loco parentis for family members. Neither experience is the same as being personally responsible for a child 24/7 every day of the week from babyhood to adulthood.
What you made was a guess. You had a 50% chance of getting it right - hardly an educated guess, never mind knowledge. Again, biological parents have agreed with me. It all comes down to your own personal experiences and how those have coloured your viewpoint.
Of course it comes down to your own personal issues, which was my very point.
You also thought i had underlying issues, which we have already been through and found not to be the case - again.....pure speculation on your part.
My feeling stands that their are issues which you are not disclosing which colours your view. The vehemence with which you slated the consumerism of the younger generation, and the inability of parents to say no, suggests monetary issues to me. However, I don't suppose you would admit that if it was the case.
And again with all due respect, you cannot hear the tone of my voice.......you are guessing on my usage of the word brat. It does not hold the same stength of negativity for me as it clearly does for you. I have no idea how you arrived at the conclusion that i implied the blame was with the child as my post then went on to basically slate bad parenting..................
The overal tone and tenor of the post.
I detest the word "!!!!!!" due to the meaning i have personally for it. But for other people, it is used as a joking insult between friends that doesnt even mean its definition. But i understand people regard words in different lights and wouldnt presume that i know in which regard they meant it.
Fair enough.
As for the board, its in the "home & play" section. I have seen dozens of people vent about something that isnt a consumer issue.
Fair point.
You've clearly misunderstood the implications of my first post possibly - as you said - due to your own past experience. However, this is very easily (and all too common i'm afraid) when discussing in text only with no facial expressions or tone applied. Much as when reading a book, you make your own impressions/images etc. 2 people can read the exact same book and pick things up in a different light due to their own viewpoint.
That is very true, but I doubt anyone reading that first post would be in any doubt that you had anything other than disdain for a whole section of society and their kds.
The only person who can tell you for sure how it was meant as it was written is the author.
Again, fair point, but we do not always realise how revealing a post is until it is commented on by others. Sometimes it is a tone, or a nuance that is picked up on and it reveals something other/more than the writer initially intended to convey.
Anyway, as you say, only you know the truth of the matter, and whether my observations were really so wide of the mark. No offence intended, I just found it a fascinating piece of social commentary and decided to jump in.:D0
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