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Cardew

zeupater wrote: »

Could you post any details of your system ?. I only ask because a £1400 return on a 9 panel £10k system looks to be a little high. Your MCS installer should have provided an estimate of the annual power generation with the quotation which can be used to calculate the likely savings.

HTH
Z

I suspect thedj is following the example of the Scottish Hydro 'rent a roof' scheme. i.e. using a computer program to enter the initial return, the enter in a very high fuel inflation rate. Then taking the final figure at the end of 25 years(ignoring any repairs etc) and dividing the total by 25 to reach annual savings.

e.g. An initial income of £500 inflation linked for 25 years might produce total income of £25,000 so income is £1,000 pa.

In fact he has estimated an income of £37,380 after 25 years - which is an Average of £1,495pa.

Senese

Hi,
I'm quite interested in these schemes but I've been trying to find out more about the legal details which is surely where the problems will come? Does anyone know where I can get a sample contract from either "A shage greener" or "Homesun" - reading their websites and various online forums the terms seem to be similar I think. Has anyone had any bad experiences with either company after installation such as needing to work on their roof and having to pay to remove the panels or problems transferring the system to a new owner after selling their house? Presumably all these are in detailed small print in the contracts?
John. (jsenese@ymail.com)

Equaliser123

Senese wrote: »

Hi,
I'm quite interested in these schemes but I've been trying to find out more about the legal details which is surely where the problems will come? Does anyone know where I can get a sample contract from either "A shage greener" or "Homesun" - reading their websites and various online forums the terms seem to be similar I think. Has anyone had any bad experiences with either company after installation such as needing to work on their roof and having to pay to remove the panels or problems transferring the system to a new owner after selling their house? Presumably all these are in detailed small print in the contracts?
John. (jsenese@ymail.com)

Just as a matter of interest, what is your expectation as to the benefits of such a scheme?

Cardew

Senese wrote: »

Hi,
I'm quite interested in these schemes but I've been trying to find out more about the legal details which is surely where the problems will come? Does anyone know where I can get a sample contract from either "A shage greener" or "Homesun" - reading their websites and various online forums the terms seem to be similar I think. Has anyone had any bad experiences with either company after installation such as needing to work on their roof and having to pay to remove the panels or problems transferring the system to a new owner after selling their house? Presumably all these are in detailed small print in the contracts?
John. ([EMAIL="jsenese@ymail.com)"]jsenese@ymail.com)[/EMAIL]

If you go to the Green and Ethical money saving section of this forum there are several threads discussing the points you raise.

As the schemes have only been in existence a year or so, I doubt if many have experienced the difficulties of which you speak.

I wouldn't agree that the terms and conditions are similar.

thedj

I qoute the figures given to me by the installer who tells me that the computer package is something that is used by all registered installers to give an idea of the returns on investments. I have as calculated correctly by Nang a 2.2 KWH array (well done).

It apparently puts in the FIT and estimated output and cell efficiency (obviously reducing over time from 100% to 76% after 30 years) and annual rate of inflation at 4% blah blah.

I do note that there are many rocket scientists out there who are much sharper than me on power supply variables! I do take my hat off to your brain power on this and do find it interesting.

Please note I am NOT an expert just a consumer/customer looking to find a good financial investment that is eco-friendly. All my info is honest/non biased info but happy for you to investigate it and question?

When buying these systems the average customer will have to take the calculations provided by the installer for what they are. MY confidence lies in that the installer is registered with the necessary agencies and is trained to required standards etc and my feed in tariff is accepted because the company is legit.

I have a weighty document that details the calculations for installation to 30 years (5 years post FIT agreement). I have 9 Sharp (New) mono 245 watt PV modules for the techies.

I guess you have to be trustful once you have taken all the fitting requirements into consideration and I am quite canny on these things and everything is spot on!

Re the power/laptop/kettle thing I admit just me trying t give examples of what I thought could be useful for average person to see what the deal was rather than trying to get their heads around all the terminology and jargon. I agree i could be misguided with that but if anyone could put the power supply into domestic items it would be useful I am sure for a lot of people?

Cardew

thedj wrote: »

I qoute the figures given to me by the installer who tells me that the computer package is something that is used by all registered installers to give an idea of the returns on investments. I have as calculated correctly by Nang a 2.2 KWH array (well done).

It apparently puts in the FIT and estimated output and cell efficiency (obviously reducing over time from 100% to 76% after 30 years) and annual rate of inflation at 4% blah blah.

I do note that there are many rocket scientists out there who are much sharper than me on power supply variables! I do take my hat off to your brain power on this and do find it interesting.

Please note I am NOT an expert just a consumer/customer looking to find a good financial investment that is eco-friendly. All my info is honest/non biased info but happy for you to investigate it and question?

When buying these systems the average customer will have to take the calculations provided by the installer for what they are. MY confidence lies in that the installer is registered with the necessary agencies and is trained to required standards etc and my feed in tariff is accepted because the company is legit.

I have a weighty document that details the calculations for installation to 30 years (5 years post FIT agreement). I have 9 Sharp (New) mono 245 watt PV modules for the techies.

I guess you have to be trustful once you have taken all the fitting requirements into consideration and I am quite canny on these things and everything is spot on!

Re the power/laptop/kettle thing I admit just me trying t give examples of what I thought could be useful for average person to see what the deal was rather than trying to get their heads around all the terminology and jargon. I agree i could be misguided with that but if anyone could put the power supply into domestic items it would be useful I am sure for a lot of people?

Thedj,

“All my info is honest/non biased info but happy for you to investigate it and question?”

I appreciate you posted in good faith, however without trying to be unkind, your original post is frankly a nonsense, and not only have you been misled, the post will mislead others who read it; and thus should be challenged.

Let us take some very basic facts:

Firstly a 2.2kWp system in Manchester will probably produce around 1,700kWh per year. That will give you an income of approx. £730 a year – which is rather different from the ‘£1400 average’ you gave. Many days, and even weeks, your panels will produce nothing or next to nothing.

On top of this you might be able to save up to £100 a year off your electricity bill, very probably considerably less.

The maximum output of your panels, even on a cloudless June day at midday, will not run a 2.5kW kettle – let alone being able to ‘boil a kettle continuously for most of the day at no cost.’

Your panels produce power(kW). The 19.5 volts your laptop uses is meaningless. Something that uses 240 volts can use a fraction of the power your laptop needs, whilst something using 12 volts can need far more power. The static electricity you can produce from wearing nylon can be 25,000 volts!!

I would have no confidence in a supplier that produces a document which predicts returns for 30 years ahead – with a high inflation rate, and uses that as a basis for financial returns. The whole purpose of having installers MCS registered is that they shouldn’t sell PV systems like double glazing salesmen of yesteryear.

Lastly, the general consensus of opinion is that PV systems like yours will turn out to be a good long term investment if the Government don’t mess about with subsidies.(and you don’t try and boil a 2.5kW kettle all day) However there are lots of factors to be considered – not least repairs and replacements. I take it you didn’t get a 30 year guarantee?

Elainemary

OK Tried to post this earlier, but it seems to have vanished. Quote is from the Mail on Sunday 20/3 Review section by Sebastian O'Kelly, Property Editor. It is not the whole article.
" Without subsidy it would take 30 years for £12500 investment in PV panels to pay off. With them, you get a tax-free return of 6 - 8 percent.
Solar panels are subsidised 10 times more generously than hydro generation, which actually is a good idea in the UK.Now the Govt is looking at chopping the hand-outs for large-scale projects ( although fields of PV panels makes more sense than expensively fitting them to small suburban roofs ).
" Last week £860 million more was unveiled for RHI rewarding large landowners running businesses with generous grants for using biomass boilers. Is it really a good use to sweeten business users and, from June domestic users to spend out on expensive renewable energy schemes? Won't high oil and gas prices do that anyway, without suburban taxpayers needing to shell out for a privileged minority of country landowners?
"Most people will have to rely on centrally provided heat and energy. The Govt's eco message to them seems to be: get insulation, cut out draughts, wear a pullover - and keep paying out."
This is MY bit - not a quote. The more I read from people/experts who seem to know what they're on about the less inclined I am to have anything installed - whether I pay for it myself or not. Or am I just reading too much into what is in the papers??

Cardew

Elainemary wrote: »

The more I read from people/experts who seem to know what they're on about the less inclined I am to have anything installed - whether I pay for it myself or not. Or am I just reading too much into what is in the papers??

The problem is that articles in papers are written by journalists, most of whom haven't the time or inclination to do any research. Instead they reguritate the publicity blurb feed to them by vested interests.

Take that Mail on Sunday quote in your post:

" Without subsidy it would take 30 years for £12500 investment in PV panels to pay off.

Complete nonsense. Even using simple arithmetic, £12,500 over 30 years is £416 a year.

A typical £12,500 system might produce 2,000kWh a year. Using half of that in the house, and selling the other half back to the Utility company at an unsubsidised rate would produce an income of approx £150.

We haven't even considered the repairs over 30 years.

However even a Dail Mail financial reporter would concede that £12,500 invested in a long term savings account would produce £500 a year in interest.

So of course you would be running your unsubsidised £12,500 PV system at an annual loss of £350.

John_Pierpoint

I think most of us are expecting the pound sterling to be devalued relative to the value of a kwh of electricity, so at least the value of the electricity used at home will go up over the years in pound terms.
That said I agree with the general conclusion of your posting.

ddavis

Cardew wrote: »

A typical £12,500 system might produce 2,000kWh a year. Using half of that in the house, and selling the other half back to the Utility company at an unsubsidised rate would produce an income of approx £150.

Are you allowing for the saving on what you would have used as well? You won't be paying out for it, so whilst it isn't an "income" it is still a ROI which should be allowed for.

I'm currently with EON, 1,343 kw/h just cost me £166. And i'm on a very good rate.