How are third and pass degrees regarded these days?

studentphil

Okay, you have all bashed me up now, I give in.

kittiwoz

I think what I was trying to say is rather similar to talksalot81. I like the analogy with engineering since I have a degree in mechanical engineering and as he says in engineering you make a lot of assumptions to describe things that you don't really know. You have to do that to make problems solvable. So whereas people are often warned agianst making assumptions engineering is all about making assumption but knowing which assumptions are appropriate and reasonable to make. If you can do that you can transform an intractable problem into something solid you can pin-down and solve. Often engineering is about applying a known method or algorithm to solve a problem but sometimes the method is empirical and in some way describes a physical process but does not explain it. In this case the engineer may not fully understand what is governing that process but they can solve the problem nonetheless.

Now, taking that as an analogy and venturing back outside my realm of personal experience, I would suggest something similar is true for doctors. Philosophically many of the questions posed by medical ethics may not be readily solvable, they may be open to debate or may involve unknown quantities. Doctors need to be able to nail down such problems and come up with a "right" answer in order to be able to proceed with confidence. They have a set of workable guidelines within which they can safely operate for that reason. It would hardly do for doctors who have to make ethical decisions on a daily basis to be constantly questioning themselves. Like engineers they need to have a degree of certainty even if they know that it is based on assumption and approximation. I think again, like engineers, they protect themselves by erring always on the side of caution.

I would think for philosophers to rely on assumptions and create artificial certainties in the way that engineers (and I imagine medics) do would probably be inappropriate and counter productive.

Consider this: An engineering student uses Matlab to find the answer to an integral problem. Matlab does not and can not integrate, it uses numerical methods to produce an answer which is an aproximation. It is a very good aproximation. Philosophically it is significant that the computer did not use integration to produce the answer because there is an elegance and logic to integration which numerical integration is lacking. The engineering student will be aware of how the answer was derived and that it is an approxiamation. They will also be aware that the error is insignificant, maybe even zero. Practically they can reliably apply the answer.

melancholly

kittiwoz wrote:

Consider this: An engineering student uses Matlab to find the answer to an integral problem.

matlab :eek:
trying to learn it at the moment (no programming background!) - wrote my first function last week :j ..... now i just need to work out how to get it to act on externally derived data rather than me typing it all in...... i'm just guessing that the difficulty is exponential!!!

studentphil

Do you know that even in the 1970's a third made some unable to take masters. So it seems that a third has always been a barrier to Post graduate study and it is not a new thing.

talksalot81

I think, more importantly, that at that point a masters was considered something for the most intelligent so the students wouldnt have been kidding themselves by trying for a masters with a low first degree grade. The difference now is that everyone is convinced that education is for everyone so people are not willing to accept.

studentphil

talksalot81 wrote:

I think, more importantly, that at that point a masters was considered something for the most intelligent so the students wouldnt have been kidding themselves by trying for a masters with a low first degree grade. The difference now is that everyone is convinced that education is for everyone so people are not willing to accept.

I am not kidding myself a Masters is probably too much for me and thus I am thinking of doing a PG DIP instead and see how I get on but probably doing a big research project might be too much for me.

DrFluffy

Don't sell yourself short.

At the time of completing my A-Levels, I thought uni was probably above my capabilities. Actually, at the beginning of my first degree I set myself a goal that, based on past academic achievement, I thought was optimistic. I wanted to get a 2ii.

If someone told me that 10 years later I would have a 2i (at above 70% average - hmmmm), gone on to get a doctorate, done a degree at Oxford and be part way through a medical degree, I really would have thought that they were taking the !!!!. Lots.

Some people just find it a little more difficult to find their niche - doesn't mean it isn't out there or that you should stop looking for it...

studentphil

I still have a lot of passion for learning new things and there are at least 2 subjects I would like to do PG study in. I just went for the subject that after English I am most unsuited to studying at degree level(but I did not know that at the time clearly.) I know some people do a BA/BSc and that sets them up for life without any more need to study. I hope I am one of them but I am still interested in learning new things.

talksalot81

DrFluffy wrote:

Don't sell yourself short.

At the time of completing my A-Levels, I thought uni was probably above my capabilities. Actually, at the beginning of my first degree I set myself a goal that, based on past academic achievement, I thought was optimistic. I wanted to get a 2ii.

If someone told me that 10 years later I would have a 2i (at above 70% average - hmmmm), gone on to get a doctorate, done a degree at Oxford and be part way through a medical degree, I really would have thought that they were taking the !!!!. Lots.

Some people just find it a little more difficult to find their niche - doesn't mean it isn't out there or that you should stop looking for it...

Whilst this may well be sound, it is unwise to give this advice without reservation. It is just as common for someone to end up drowning because they have assumed they are better than they are. Not everyone has their calling going further and higher in academia and there will be plenty of times when following your advice ends up in someone taking the wrong path. We need to get away from people assuming that moving into the real world and not higher in the education system means they are a failure.

studentphil

talksalot81 wrote:

Whilst this may well be sound, it is unwise to give this advice without reservation. It is just as common for someone to end up drowning because they have assumed they are better than they are. Not everyone has their calling going further and higher in academia and there will be plenty of times when following your advice ends up in someone taking the wrong path. We need to get away from people assuming that moving into the real world and not higher in the education system means they are a failure.

I do not see a career in academia for myself. I would like to PG study though to improve what I can do in the real world.