Chip 'n' Pin - A Quick Guide Discussion Area

James

Very interesting press release considering whats gone before on this forum alone. I notice the Chip and PIN barometer gives figures of 42 million cardholder - How many cards would that be? and the example of those with C&P are bank-owned, how many are retailer owned?

Still waiting to see if anyone has a decent answers to the following:

1. What incentive is there for someone to have a PIN with a new type Chip & PIN credit card if they don't want to use it to withdraw money at a cash machine?

2. Is it compulsory to have a PIN with a Chip & PIN card?

3. Why are card issuers not telling us about Chip & Signature cards?

4. Why do terms and conditions fail to mention that if you don't have a PIN (Chip & Signature card) then you can only be held liable for a maximum of £50 if your card is used fraudulently before its reproted lost or stolen?

Latest from Egg - If you ever want a reminder of your PIN, you can check it online at anytime - just log in to 'your account.'

Anyone got any views on security issues regarding viewing your PIN online. How safe is it, who else will have access to it etc?

James

student100

Anyone got any views on security issues regarding viewing your PIN online. How safe is it, who else will have access to it etc?

It is surely more secure than receiving it on a piece of paper provided no-one is looking over your shoulder and your browser is correctly set up not to cache secure sites.

Using a secure web server is probably more secure than any other way of letting someone know their PIN. Also, having access to this facility means people will be less likely to write their PIN down somewhere obvious in case they forget.

So long as you don't leave your online banking sign-on details lying around... ::)

James

It will be interesting to see how 'IT security experts' view this practice.

Wilkinsons - Tried out my new Chip & Signature Card today.

Went to the check-out and the young lady swiped my card! I asked why she never entered it in her new Chip & PIN pad terminal. Reply we've only got one out of half a dozen still working. (Wilkinson have had these terminals in place and in use for at least two months now).

She cancelled my transaction at my request and I tried the one that was working.

I entered my card, I had to agree the amount shown yet at this point I had no form of receipt with the items on it - but to save time I did press OK. A transaction slip was produced and I signed per normal.

Fancy having a go at some of the other questions Student 100?

James

System

Has anyone actually used chip and pin yet?

Has anyone keyed the pin in or has everyone still signed?

Interesting to know!

student100

As you insist I'll "have a go at some of the other questions" :

1. What incentive is there for someone to have a PIN with a new type Chip & PIN credit card if they don't want to use it to withdraw money at a cash machine?

Saves the need to sign your name, speeds up queues (providing there are not too many awkward people in front of you ), probably you will get less paper receipts since the fact you paid by card can just be indicated on the bottom of your main till receipt.

Also, in a restauraunt or similar environment, the fact that you have to enter a PIN will mean the card need never leave your sight. Either the waiter will bring a wireless terminal to your table or you will have to go to the counter. This would certainly make me feel more secure than leaving my card in a dish for the waiter to take and look at behind my back.

2. Is it compulsory to have a PIN with a Chip & PIN card?

I would imagine that by defenition a Chip and PIN card is only a Chip and PIN card if you have a PIN.

3. Why are card issuers not telling us about Chip & Signature cards?

Because they are an exception to the rule - they have been designed to accommodate people who have difficulty remembering or entering a PIN. They are not designed for the average Joe (who is capable of remembering a four digit number).

4. Why do terms and conditions fail to mention that if you don't have a PIN (Chip & Signature card) then you can only be held liable for a maximum of £50 if your card is used fraudulently before its reproted lost or stolen?

Because they don't need to - this applies even if you have a PIN. I will quote for the third time the T&Cs of my Accucard:

Unless you have acted fraudulently or consented to or permitted its misuse, you will not be liable for the misuse of a Card, convenience cheque or PIN if:
(a) someone else uses your Card, convenience cheque or PIN before or after you tell us that it might be misused or that someone else knows the PIN, password or other security information...

...If the card is lost, stolen or misused by someone who obtained it without your consent, you may be liable for up to £0 of any loss to us....

Could you quote the T&Cs of another card where you would be held liable for more?

D_G_Marsden

Anyone used Chip and Pin yet?

James

To Student 100 & Interested Parties:

Lets have a look at the following then I will address your questions.

My friend has followed the "sensible" trend to swap credit cards regularly to take advantage of 0% deals. Unfortunately, having lots of credit cards meant when it was stolen, he didn't notice until the next statement.

The provider claims he must have been negligent with the PIN for it to have been used at ATMs, and wants him to repay the £4000 the thief stacked up, a.s.a.p.

I've read that you are only liable for the first £50 of credit card fraud, but it will be weeks before the provider's investigations reach a conclusion.

If the person above didn’t have a PIN and fraud was committed then the crook wouldn’t have been able to get hard cash at an ATM, they would have been restricted to a shop. If the card had been used in a shop then the genuine cardholder could have asked for signatures to be compared. One thing is for sure the victim would have only been liable for a max of £50. What happens now is that the card issuer wants to know how someone acquired the victims PIN. Investigations take weeks even months and all this time the victim has X amount of £s hanging over their head. PINs thanks but no thank.

You reckon entering a PIN speeds things up, from personal experience I beg to differ, and according to a gentleman from the PMO (Chip & PIN) entering a PIN and Signature times are roughly the same. Your correct there is at least one bit of paper less, the shops copy of the transaction slip with the purchaser’s signature. That dear Student 100 is the auditable trail, which can clear a victim’s name and in some cases held identify the culprit. PINs with credit cards NO thanks.

Cards never having to leave the owners hand in a pub or restaurant. You must have missed the Radio 5 live broadcast a few Saturday mornings ago. The lady presenter was in a Northampton Pub. She paid for her round with her new C&P card. Unfortunately the PIN Pad was on the opposite side of the counter, she couldn’t reach. She gave her card to the bar person and shouted her PIN to him for him to enter it.

Is it compulsory to have a PIN with a Chip & PIN card? I should have asked, is it compulsory to have a PIN with a new type Chip card? That is the type of card that’s entered into the new type PIN pads and not swiped.

If a Pin with the new type card is not compulsory or a legal requirement then how can you have an exception to a rule that doesn’t exist. Where does it say that a PIN is compulsory in the first instance? I can assure you when you push card issuers on this topic the line is - a PIN is ‘The Banks Preferred Option.’ Well it certainly isn’t mine.

I’m a pretty average Joe, but I struggle to remember lots of PINs and Passwords, especially PINs that I seldom use. As for changing all my cards to the same pin – bad practice, very bad practice.
Remebering PINs and liability shift are the main reason I’ve acquired a Chip & Signature Card.

Terms & Conditions again: Once again the Banking Code 12.4 and 12.9 covers liability for PIN theft/fraud. It’s down to interpretation and the perfect wriggle tool for card issuers when someone can’t explain how someone got hold of their PIN and hit their account for thousands.

From Nationwide T&Cs. If someone does use your PIN without your authority: Your liability for any losses, which occur before you tell us, will be limited to £50. These limits will not apply if you act fraudulently or with gross negligence. (Negligence I am sure will be anyone cont
Advice on looking after your PIN.
Memorise and destroy your PIN immediately, and destroy the written notification telling you what your PIN is as soon as you can.
Never write down your PIN
Never tell anybody else what your PIN is and must not let anyone else use it except an additional cardholder who shares the same PIN.
Never use or disclose your PIN for telephone, internet or mail order purchases.

On the strength of what you claim about liability someone will think it a good wheeze to give a.n.other their credit card and PIN, have them disguise themselves and hit the nearest cash machine. At approximately the same time the cardholder with a good alibi reports their card lost. I wonder what would happen. Maybe the card industry could be encouraging a few ‘Robin Hoods.’

As I’ve said before consumers should be able to make an informed choice. Keeping in mind that ATM fraud jumped by 37% last year and that’s where PINs are used exclusively. I consider myself fortunate to have a Chip & Signature Credit card – nobody could ever accuse me of first party fraud.

James.

System

My son-in-law has just discovered that someone is taking hundreds of pounds out of his HSBC student account - on his new Chip 'n' Pin card that he has not even received yet!! The card was sent out by post to him on 8 April and has apparently been intercepted and a pin number selected as of this weekend. His old card does not expire for months and he has been using that. Ironically he did not even ask for the new system but was informed in April that his card was to be changed to the new system - for security reasons. How can this be? Is it an inside job? The bank have not shown a high level of concern!

D_G_Marsden

Still 48 hours later, ??? ??? ???

has anyone used chip and pin?

What providers have already gone live?

student100

My friend has followed the "sensible" trend to swap credit cards regularly to take advantage of 0% deals. Unfortunately, having lots of credit cards meant when it was stolen, he didn't notice until the next statement.

Not so sensible then.

If you have so many cards that you don't notice when one is missing, you have too many cards.


And as for the foolish radio presenter who shouted her PIN accross a bar, can she not read? Has she no brain? All the literature for Chip and PIN states clearly to never tell anyone your PIN. If you're just going to shout it out you deserve to have your account emptied by a criminal.

Similarly the publican obviously has no intelligence or common sense, and should not be allowed to accept credit card payments in any form.



And to FOH, no, I have not used Chip and PIN yet. I have one C&P card and one which hasn't been replaced yet. As of yet I haven't used my card in a shop where C&P has been implemented. (During the university term I don't go shopping an awful lot, apart from the local supermarket, (Sainsburys) who haven't installed the readers yet.)