Chip 'n' Pin - A Quick Guide Discussion Area

System

1. The Mail are renowned for blowing things out of all proportion
I note you say, "they may be left to pick up the bill", but do not justify in what cirumstances this may happen. Remember that although they may, they also may not.

These are the Mail on Sundays words, not mine. But I agree with everything they say, and I am sure many others will think again when it comes to sPINs sorry PINs

2. Some people have trouble signing a signature. Has anyone actually done a study to find out whether more people find PINs difficult to enter or signatures difficult to sign?

Does it matter? How can a partially sighted person ensure they are not being watched when they enter their PIN. Or someone whose numerically dyslexic feel when they're card is rejected in a shop or with-held at a cash machine? Or somone with a short term memory span? The list goes on

If you want a PIN go for it - I like many others realise 'Safety in Numbers,' is just sPIN.
James

James

I've posted this on the quick discussion guide too:

You will be blamed for Bank PIN fraud. (The Financial Mail, Mail on Sunday, 09 May 04, pages 24 & 25).

As the new high-security debit and credit cards are issued, customers are warned they may be left to pick up the bill if criminals strike.


Disability fears for new credit cards. (BBC News, 10 May 2004). (<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3694593.stm>).

Takes me back to my original question - If you dont want to draw money at a cash machine, is it compulsory to have a PIN with a credit card?

Maybe Martin would like to address this question.

System

To test it i used mr divadee's credit card signed it faking his signature and no one batted an eye lid!! no aint we glad that dont happen here!!

Isn't that the problem? Currently, someone can "shoulder-surf" while I get cash out of the cashpoint (which is not often). Now they will be able to watch me type my PIN whenever I use my card.
A pickpocket can easily snatch cards without the victim noticing. Nobody will challenge them when they use the card :-(

At least with the current system, the merchant might check my signature.

sly_dog_jonah

Anyway, following egg's advice I went to my banks cashpoint, selected 'English', entered the old pin, selected PIN services > Change PIN, re-entered the old one to confirm, then entered a new PIN, and again to confirm it.... Thought to myself "that was easy enough"..... only for the cashpoint to spit out the card and complain that my 'Card didn't allow this service'! So I repeated the process, only to be denied again!

Tried it in Nationwide's cashpoint today, entered new PIN... "Sorry you have selected an invalid transaction or account"

Still no response from egg >:(

System

Your Egg card PIN is causing you a lot of hassel. I presume you opened it, memorised it and proceeded to the Nationwide ATM to change it to a more memorable number. If you've not it could be considered that you are being negligent with your PIN.

If you dont want to use your Egg card to withdraw money at a cash machine, then write to Egg, returning your PIN and ask for a Chip & Signature Card. These cards will be accepted at the new type chip and PIN terminals. Enter your card and a receipt for you to sign as normal is produced. Only difference is I believe that there's no need for the retailer to retain their copy of the slip anymore. (to be confirmed). This means that you could never be held responsible for fraud at point of sale. The retailer would have destroyed the auditable trail, the fraudsters' or your signature. It's a no brainer.

Fatboy_NSS

I am intrigued by all the talk of "Chip & Signature" cards on this board, simply because I don't think any sensible bank will issue them, and certainly no merchant will accept them. The reason for this is quite simple - when Chip & Pin starts the retailer will be liable for any fraud if the PIN is not used. Therefore it will ring alarm bells in the retailer's mind if a customer refuses to enter a PIN and asks to sign the receipt instead. I don't think the disability argument has any merit as using credit and debit cards is not a right and anyone who cannot or does not wish to use a PIN can still withdraw cash at a bank counter by signing for it and producing ID.

Regarding the location of the "PIN pads", remember that Chip & Pin hasn't started yet and very few retailers have installed their pads, so any keypads you're seeing probably aren't the ones where you'll key in your PIN. When it starts, if you're worried about someone else seeing your PIN then cup your free hand over the pad so they can't watch you key it in, and if you think someone has seen your PIN then go to the cashpoint and change it. Even if someone does see your PIN, they can't do anything with it unless they steal your cards, and you still wouldn't be liable for any losses as long as you reported the cards stolen promptly.

System

 I don't think the disability argument has any merit as using credit and debit cards is not a right and anyone who cannot or does not wish to use a PIN can still withdraw cash at a bank counter by signing for it and producing ID.

Fatboy, are you really that dense?

Even if it were not illegal for the banks to put in place measures to discriminate against their disabled customers (which it is), how could you even vaguely believe that such discrimination should be acceptable.

Therefore it will ring alarm bells in the retailer's mind if a customer refuses to enter a PIN and asks to sign the receipt instead.

If you had even vaguely looked into this before giving us the benefit of your wisdom, you would know that when the retailer inserts the card in the reader, the machine will instruct the retailer to request a signature. The customer does not need to say anything.

when Chip & Pin starts the retailer will be liable for any fraud if the PIN is not used

Not true for Chip & Signature.

student100

We don't seem to be actually getting anywhere with this discussion. Whilst I'm perfectly happy to hear other peoples' viewpoints, I don't think saying "...are you really that dense?" in response to someone's opinion is really an adult way to conduct a sensible conversation, is it? It might not be my place to say so, but if you want to have a constructive discussion then it would be helpful if the guests registered and signed in so we can keep track of who is saying what, and keep the conversation to an intellectual level rather than hurling insults at people? please?

System

I thought I was being quite polite given the extremely offensive viewpoint being posted by Fatboy.

student100

Ok, now I've posted my little aside I think I'll actually add my response to the things that have been said:


1. Yes, so as not to discriminate against people who have genuine disabilities, banks have to provide alternative methods like Chip and Signature. However, this is not intended to be used by people who are perfectly able to remember a PIN (a single, four digit number) and enter it into a keypad. Just because some people get special dispensation, doesn't mean the rest of us should abuse that provision. Some people get to park closer to supermarkets because of their disability, that doesn't mean we all should get to.

2. As for the design and placement of the PIN pads, as has been mentioned already, many countries, including France, Australia and the USA have some form of PIN entry at point of sale (in the US it's just for certain debit cards). They all use PIN pads similar to the ones that will be used here, and they have not had any problems like mass PIN theft from "shoulder surfing", as some people suggest will happen here. Since the introduction of PIN in France, 10 years ago, there has been an 80% reduction in card fraud. The new system to be introduced here is more secure than the 10 year old French one, too.
PIN entry at point of sale is a tried and tested method, and these countries all manage to use the system perfectly well without any problems as you describe.

3. Even if someone does manage to see your PIN, they still have to actually get the card off you. Once they have done that, yes, they could use it to pay for goods, but you will not be held liable. I posted earlier an extract from the terms and conditions of one credit card, which clearly say, "Unless you have acted fraudulently or consented to or permitted its misuse, you will not be liable for the
misuse of a Card, convenience cheque or PIN if ... someone else uses your Card, convenience cheque or PIN before or after you tell us that it might be misused or that someone else knows the PIN, password or other security information".
With a signature card, the signature is written on the card, so that once they have got the card they also have the signature. There is no need for the criminal to go to the trouble of observing your PIN.