Chip 'n' Pin - A Quick Guide Discussion Area

System

Actually stannerack, most fraud occurs in shops. (I work at a wine merchant here in Edinburgh).

The fact that no-one in this country seems to sign their signature the way it appears on the cards is the start of the problem.

I spent my first couple of months getting people to re-sign their debit/credit slip as it looked nothing like their signature and got nothing but abuse in return.
I explain that it's to protect them as well as me but they don't listen as no-one else has ever checked their signatures!

If no-one signs their name PROPERLY and no-one bothers to REALLY check the signature, then you have an environment where fraud can flourish.

The Chip&Pin system is similar to EFTPOS back in Australia. Something we've had for over 20 (TWENTY!) years.

A PIN system makes a ton of sense as it makes it VERY difficult (but of course, not impossible) to commit fraud over the counter.


I was pleasantly surprised to hear that the backwards, lazy British banking system was considering this system. They don't seem to like doing anything modern - or sensible!

The next step is to adopt the functionality of EFTPOS.
In Oz, there are no SWITCH or SOLO type cards.
You simply use your normal BASIC hole-in-the-wall ATM card.
You don't have to "qualify" for it, and it's NOT like an overdraught. So EVERYONE in the country, kids included, can happily shop with their basic ATM card.

When you use your ATM card in a shop in Australia, the system checks your bank balance THEN & THERE.
If your balance is even one cent short of covering the sale, the transaction won't go through.

So Australians NEVER get fined by their bank for spending over their limit via EFTPOS.

Of course, the British banking system HATES this idea, as they LOVE getting their all-too-regular £30 fines from SWICTH & SOLO users.

If anyone knows a way we can lobby the banking industry here to change their ways, let me know.
I'm well up for it because I'm sick to death of these old, clunky, inertia-laden British banks.

Paul_Herring

The fact that no-one in this country seems to sign their signature the way it appears on the cards is the start of the problem.

I spent my first couple of months getting people to re-sign their debit/credit slip as it looked nothing like their signature[...]

And part of this is caused by the fact that the strip is too narrow. Well it is for my signature anyway...

student100

...
When you use your ATM card in a shop in Australia, the system checks your bank balance THEN & THERE.
If your balance is even one cent short of covering the sale, the transaction won't go through.
...

That's how Solo and Visa Electron cards work...

callmeroy

I must declare an interest here first; I'm an M&S employee.

Matthk is spot on, like him I take care to check the signature matches the sample on the strip and you would not believe some of the abuse (and one threat of physical violence) that I encounter most days for having the audacity to question a customer to sign again.
Btw - the signature is only one (admittedly the most important one) of 6 checks that we are trained to check on every card transaction.

Most customers I deal with are not as prudent as the vast majority of the posters here and will expect (at best) the most cursory check of their signature - if at all - before grabbing the card back.

My understanding on the customer failing to enter the correct code 3 times in succession is not only is the transaction (obviously) declined but the card should be retained. (Unless the customer can produce formal ID that it's their card - driving license passport etc.).

It should be noted that (as mentioned previously in this thread) during the implementation phase for C&P we will have some latitude to allow the, ahem, more forgetful customer to sign instead or entering their PIN. As 2005 rolls on though, this ‘latitude’ will be withdrawn and if you can’t recall the PIN we will (politely, I hope) ask you for an alternative method of payment.

Every M&S till should have the PIN terminals installed by summer. The chip readers have been in place in my store since January and if you present a chip card to pay, the tills will already be reading this and not the magnetic strip.

The last pictures I saw of our intended PIN terminals will prevent anyone seeing the number entered, be it staff or ‘curious’ onlooker.

Roy.

student100

All the PIN entry pads I have seen so far do seem to be designed in such a way as to conceal your PIN from curious onlookers. There is nothing to stop you covering the pad with your hand, and standing right in front of the pad, to stop people seeing your PIN.

And if you did suspect that someone had seen your PIN, it is a simple matter to change it at an ATM.

Contrast this to a signature, where the signature is written on the back of the card for anyone to read and learn to copy, and as has been mentioned already in this thread, often careless sales assistants do not check the signature. PIN is clearly more secure, as there is only a 1 in 10,000 chance of guessing the correct PIN, whereas it is very easy to forge a signature.

One other benefit for retailers and consumers alike is that stores will no longer have to store mounds of sales slips. When I worked in a large retail chain there were about a dozen large plastic boxes in the cash office which contained signed credit card vouchers and had to be retained for a period of months (six I think?) in case there was a queried transaction. After that period they were shredded and disposed of, but you could conceive a situation where one didn't get shredded properly and was still readable. Surely it will be comforting to customers that their credit card details do not have to sit on a piece of paper in the office of every store they use their card in for half a year after making the purchase?

System

Having seen how the retailers have implemented the keypads for Chip'n'Pin I am deeply unhappy at the lack of security. In most cases the keypads seem to be open to view by anybody standing anywhere nearby.

When my bank and credit card companies to get me to have a Chip'n'Pin card I intend refusing and insisting on a Chip'n'Signature card. Apparantly the banks have to offer these (under the new disability discrimination legislation) and are not allowed to ask why you want one.

student100

Having seen how the retailers have implemented the keypads for Chip'n'Pin I am deeply unhappy at the lack of security. In most cases the keypads seem to be open to view by anybody standing anywhere nearby.

When my bank and credit card companies to get me to have a Chip'n'Pin card I intend refusing and insisting on a Chip'n'Signature card. Apparantly the banks have to offer these (under the new disability discrimination legislation) and are not allowed to ask why you want one.

I would say that's a very irresponsible attitide to take. The systems are being implemented for a very good reason. If they were not secure and had not been carefully planned and researched they would not be being introduced. BUT the system will only work if everyone uses it.

As I mentioned in my post above, I think even if there is a small risk that someone can see your PIN, it is still less of a risk than them copying your signature.

I also wonder whether some automatic ticket machines etc. will only work if you have a PIN card and use your PIN.

System

Having seen how the retailers have implemented the keypads for Chip'n'Pin I am deeply unhappy at the lack of security. In most cases the keypads seem to be open to view by anybody standing anywhere nearby.

When my bank and credit card companies to get me to have a Chip'n'Pin card I intend refusing and insisting on a Chip'n'Signature card. Apparantly the banks have to offer these (under the new disability discrimination legislation) and are not allowed to ask why you want one.

System

Although I have not recvd my Debit card Pin Numbers,
will there be charges for withdrawing cash from debit cards(the same as credit cards).?

student100

Although I have not recvd my Debit card Pin Numbers,
will there be charges for withdrawing cash from debit cards(the same as credit cards).?

No. Using a cash machine will work exactly the same as it does now, so there will (usually*) be no charge to withdraw on a debit card/cash machine card. *(see note below)

There will probably be a "cash advance fee" plus interest to pay if you use a credit card to withdraw cash from a cashpoint (this is the case even without chip and PIN).


*Note:
Unless you use a "convenience" cash machine (in some motorway services, corner shops etc) where a separate surcharge may apply and you should be notified of this fee. As far as I know all high street banks offer free withdrawals at their cash machines.