Builder vat fraud

suisidevw

PS, You sound WAYYYYYYYY too nice in all this. This is business, you're not 'mates' and he's fiddling you at EVERY stage.

00ec25

jimbo88 wrote: »

Is he really not defrauding me?

yes he is which is why you must report him to HMRC otherwise you are at least morally guilty of being as opportunistic as him in trying to extract money from the situation

jimbo88 wrote: »

The main thing we are disputing, is not these minor additions, but for asking for extra money for the build of the whole extension, which is much more than the original quote/contract that we signed.
Please don't forget, we signed a contract to agree a certain price for a certain size,

if the contract was for a fixed price then you are entitled to an itemised priced list of the variations which he has now claimed for and you can then argue with him (ultimately in court) whether they are in or out of the contract. If he simply wants a lump sum becuase he got his original price wrong then tell him to sue you as you have (apparently) got a fixed price contract

jimbo88 wrote: »

Bearing in mind, he has been working onsite for 4-5 months and yet there was NO mention of this additional cost to the extrension until last week! Surely, you as a professional builder, you would have at least thought to mention this? An extra 3k requested, to us, is not a small sum! We can't just magic out some money out of a hat.

every builder in the country will try to claim extra costs if they can, it's the way of the world and no they will not necessarily inform you if you don't ask for a progress report as why would they want to provoke trouble in advance? this is what project management is about - keeping on top of progress and costs

jimbo88 wrote: »

he should know what he needs to build it, how much he needs and how much it costs?......

there are always some elements of unforeseen costs in any building works - this is why it is vital the cost of such extras is attributable between builder or designer and, if applicable, householder change of mind

macman

What is his justification for an extra £3K on the extension bill? And what proportion of the original quoted cost is this?
What stage of completion (or otherwise) is this job at after 5 months?

busiscoming2

00ec25 wrote: »

every builder in the country will try to claim extra costs if they can, it's the way of the world and no they will not necessarily inform you if you don't ask for a progress report as why would they want to provoke trouble in advance?

No they don't! My dh is a builder (SE) and his quotes/prices are stuck to unless the client changes their mind about what they want done. If there are more costs to be incurred for whatever reason, dh always speaks to client and gives them the choice.

jimbo88_2

macman wrote: »

What is his justification for an extra £3K on the extension bill? And what proportion of the original quoted cost is this?
What stage of completion (or otherwise) is this job at after 5 months?

Umm..the cost of materials?? Like I said, he has nothing in writing to us to say what this £3k is for, we were never made away of this extra amount at any stage?..which is why I don't think he can take me to court, to get this extra, since he has nothing in writing about this random amount!!

The stage is nearing completion- he is due the final payment (2 payment stages have been paid inc vat of course)..so he still has the floor to finish off- self levelling compound, finish fitting the french door, and general minors bits..so nearly there I guess.

The "contract" does not say the actual physical words of Fixed Price. But I assumed "Total cost of above works £XX,XXX" means the total cost!?...

jimbo88_2

suisidevw wrote: »

Have you really already paid for these vast increases in the actual extension without confronting the builder?!

There is only 1 large sum which we are disputing...the extras I talked about are fine, we will of course pay for any additional/extras work we ask for.

So far payments have been the deposit to "book him", 1st and 2nd stage payments, and now due the final payment. (subject to snag list)...and now of course- the additional random amount he has requested for on the extension....

macman

Extra for materials? What materials? If you pay this guy a single penny extra then you are crazy.
Throw him off the job now, pay him what he quoted minus the VAT he has put in his back pocket. Tell him that if he doesn't find that acceptable then he can sue you and of course his VAT avoidance will come to light.
What you save will allow you to get someone competent and honest to finish the job.

jimbo88_2

00ec25 wrote: »

there are always some elements of unforeseen costs in any building works - this is why it is vital the cost of such extras is attributable between builder or designer and, if applicable, householder change of mind

Yes, some unforeseen costs can be incurred. But if you don't tell anyone about it........ then you are already creating issues for yourself and your client at the end??....
Like I said, you don't quote something, agree it, build it, then change the price. Seems abit wrong to me.

(plus the invalid vat issue.....)

jimbo88_2

00ec25 wrote: »

what is the relationship of the contract to the quote you referred to?
what does it say about the costs (and any variations to the specification)
what does it say about grounds for determining the works?
what does it say about retention payments and defect liability periods?

if you fall out with the builder now can you under the contract (or would you realistically want) to get him back to fix the inevitable snagging and defects that appear over the next few months

The contract he created is really quite basic. It does not go into detail about retention payments/defect liability etc....just a couple of pages, listing the works involved, the staged payments in %, the non refundable deposit, the price inc and exc vat, and "all materials belong to XXX until all payment has been received, somewhere to sign, and that is it.

macman

Look, he quoted you this job back in September? He knew then how long it would take him to build it and as a (presumably) experienced builder he knew how much material price were likely to rise during construction. The only other factor since then has been a 2.5% VAT increase in January, but he knew about that when he quoted. Unless the contract specifically allowed for material increases, he can't charge you any extra for them. And even if he could, he should be able to explain how that breaks down.
I am going to repeat my earlier question-what percentage of the original quote does this £3K increase represent? I'm guessing much more than 10%?