Rail Penalty Fare Problem!

obev0098

Stigy wrote: »

I wouldn't take her work for it. With respect to her, her job entails the safety of the train, along with selling tickets etc. Unless she's had previous prosecutions experience, I doubt she'd know much about the processes, nor indeed the possible reprocusions of ignoring the situation.

The TOC has 6-months with which to lay a case with the court, and that doesn't include the hearing. In other words you could have been reported for an offence in October and only just have a Court date now (could be 7 or 8 months before a slot becomes available, as long as the courts have been told about it and the case has been booked so to speak, within 6-months). It all depends on how busy they are. Bearing in mind you've received initial correspondence from the company dealing with the case, the ball is more than likely well and truely rolling, and it's just a matter of time before they contact you with regard to your last letter. I can't remember when you said you sent your letter in response to theirs, but I'd certainly consider contacting themn to make sure they have received it.

Thank you for all your help. I have just one more question, what can I expect? Just a fine or something worse? Best wishes.

Livingthedream

obev0098 wrote: »

Thank you for all your help. I have just one more question, what can I expect? Just a fine or something worse? Best wishes.

Depends on what the Train Companies' prosecutions dept plan to do with your case. Perhaps one of the following if they prosecute under the Railways act 1889;

1. Out of court settlement, the train company don't have to offer this to you, you have to influence the train company that it's more rewarding for them to do this.
2. Court case and if found guilty criminal record and a fine.

They could prosecute under a byelaw offence but the way you describe the letter you received and the way you replied to the letter I think it will be a RA1889 prosecution.

They might drop the case for some reason but normally they will want closure of the case which means sending you a letter saying this.

Stigy

obev0098 wrote: »

Thank you for all your help. I have just one more question, what can I expect? Just a fine or something worse? Best wishes.

As Livingthedream has said really.

It all depends on what was said under questioning as to the offence you're potentially being charged with. Is that letter identical to the one you received? If so, it looks like they're charging you under S.5.3(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. For them to go down this road they would have had to have reasonabvle grounds to believe it was your intention to avoid paying for you rail journey, which appears strange in your case, unless you admitted your intention to avoid payment when questioned. If found guilty of this offence you'll likely receive a fine in the region of £350, plus costs of around £100 plus victim surcharge of £15 plus compensation (cost of the fare avoided/unpaid...usually standard day single fare). This is also a recordable offence and potentially it will find its way on to the Police National Computer (PNC), although this very much depends on whether the court communicate this to the relevant parties etc. This is in addition to a Criminal Record.

If charged under a Railway Byelaw (more than likely 18.1 in this case) you'll receive less of a fine and it wont be recordable on the PNC. However you'll still receive a Criminal Record that you'll have to disclose for certain jobs etc. Settling out of court is by far the cheapest way to do things in the long run, although the TOC are not obliged to accept this offer and may proceed to court anyway. Of course, if you feel you are not guilty, you should go to court any way, as that's the whole idea of the system. Unfortunately though, if it goes to court, these things usually go in the TOC's favour, which I'm afraid is the joy of a Strict Liability offence (Byelaws are Strict Liability offences which means in laymans terms, it doesn't matter what your intentions were or how ignorant to the rules you were, you didn't have a ticket when you should have done!).

Bear in mind also that all fines very much depend on your means, for example if you are unemployed, you'll more than likely receive a lesser fine than if you're a city banker (dependent on savings too of course!). Make sure you fill out the means form accurately to ensure you aren't treated overly harshly .

Good Luck!

yorkie2

obev0098 wrote: »

Not sure if you guys can help me but here goes.

On the 7th of Jan I didn't have my weekly pass with me and was approached by a women that taken my details at Stockport station after I travelled from Manchester Piccadilly on a virgin train (10 min journey).

I am curious to know why you have posted in an old topic about Penalty Fares? This has absolutely nothing to do with Penalty Fares, and Virgin do not even operate a penalty fare scheme!

obev0098 wrote: »

Around early may I received a letter asking if I was the person in question from the 7th of Jan, the letter was from SouthWestern Rail (Or eastern I cant remember)

SouthEastern, who will be doing this on behalf of Virgin.

obev0098 wrote: »

I replied back advising that I am indeed that person and that the info I provided the lady was correct and that I lost the weekly ticket whilst visiting my grandparents. I also said in the letter that I can accept if I was to be fined as obviously I didnt have a ticket.

How odd. If you have lost your ticket, I would expect a rather different outcome. I would expect you to be asked to purchase a new ticket, and it is possible that a refund may have been made once your Season could be produced. I do wonder why this did not happen. How very odd. Were you not asked to pay the fare?

It is interesting that you accept a fine. A fine for what offence? There are two possible offences you could be charged with, and both are punishable with a fine. But a fine can only be handed out once you go through the courts. A criminal record will also go with the fine, if you are found (or plead) guilty. If intent can be proven, the offence will be recorded. If intent cannot be proven, it will not be recorded. If it is recorded, a CRB check will show the offence to any prospective employer carrying out such a check.

obev0098 wrote: »

My problem is that they havent been back in touch with me and I have now moved address, it is worrying me and i'm not sure what to do. I did leave my mobile number on the letter but have not recieved a call as of yet.

Any advice guys?

Ensure that all mail delivered to your old address is forwarded to your new address, and contact the companies concerned asking if they are perusing the matter.

Don't ignore correspondence otherwise it can get worse.

I feel there is some information missing here. I am unable to advise further as there are too many gaps and unknowns.

obev0098 wrote: »

I got on the virgin train home today....I spoke with the train manager about my situation...her exact words were "forget about it, if they havent been back to you by now they never will"

Hmmmm

I certainly wouldn't count on that! It can take months to bring a prosecution before the courts.

I do wonder why you were not invited to purchase a ticket (or, if you were, why you have not volunteered that information to us) and why you appear to be pleading guilty by stating you will accept a fine. If you are prepared to accept a fine, then what advice do you want?

Stigy

yorkie2 wrote: »

A criminal record will also go with the fine, if you are found (or plead) guilty. If intent can be proven, the offence will be recorded. If intent cannot be proven, it will not be recorded. If it is recorded, a CRB check will show the offence to any prospective employer carrying out such a check.

Even if non-recorded (Byelaw) then it could still show up on a CRB check. The only difference is that recordable offences are PNC recordable.

obev0098

yorkie2 wrote: »

I am curious to know why you have posted in an old topic about Penalty Fares? This has absolutely nothing to do with Penalty Fares, and Virgin do not even operate a penalty fare scheme!

SouthEastern, who will be doing this on behalf of Virgin.

How odd. If you have lost your ticket, I would expect a rather different outcome. I would expect you to be asked to purchase a new ticket, and it is possible that a refund may have been made once your Season could be produced. I do wonder why this did not happen. How very odd. Were you not asked to pay the fare?

It is interesting that you accept a fine. A fine for what offence? There are two possible offences you could be charged with, and both are punishable with a fine. But a fine can only be handed out once you go through the courts. A criminal record will also go with the fine, if you are found (or plead) guilty. If intent can be proven, the offence will be recorded. If intent cannot be proven, it will not be recorded. If it is recorded, a CRB check will show the offence to any prospective employer carrying out such a check.


Ensure that all mail delivered to your old address is forwarded to your new address, and contact the companies concerned asking if they are perusing the matter.

Don't ignore correspondence otherwise it can get worse.

I feel there is some information missing here. I am unable to advise further as there are too many gaps and unknowns.


I certainly wouldn't count on that! It can take months to bring a prosecution before the courts.

I do wonder why you were not invited to purchase a ticket (or, if you were, why you have not volunteered that information to us) and why you appear to be pleading guilty by stating you will accept a fine. If you are prepared to accept a fine, then what advice do you want?

Thanks for your reply, I have faxed them but no reply. Really concerned that I havent heard anything yet.

To answer your questions.

I posted on here as I assumed I would get a fine and wanted advice.
I was not asked to pay a fare, I was approached by a women when leaving the station.
I havent ignored any letters, I only received one which I have previously stated.

I left full contact details including a telephone number, is there any way I can contact these people?

MarcP_2

Hi all,

I recently took a trip to from London KX to Leeds where I was visiting a relative in Hospital, I was travelling on the East Coast rail service. I had paid £80 online when purchasing my return ticket a week prior to departure. Got to Leeds ok but on my return I was asked my the rail conductor to produce a valid ticket as mine had expired, to my horror he was correct my ticket had the previous day's date on. I refused to pay any extra as to my knowledge I had entered the correct dates online and felt it would be unfair to pay again for a service a had not actually used. On my return I have appealed to RPSS but had this declined and asked to pay £154.50. I am now looking for further advice due to the following issues -
- I had selected to return the next day online but the tickets had the incorrect date on the return, this is not my fault?
- As I was visiting a relative in Hosptial why would I want to have only spent half an hour in Leeds? (this is what my ticket would have allowed)
- On boarding the return train from Leeds to London KX I showed my ticket to the train guard who let me through the barriers and had checked my ticket and seen nothing wrong with it, so it would appear that not only myself but a train employee had failed to spot this?
- Why would I want to pay £119.50 + Admin for a train ticket that I have already paid for?
- Should the fare that I have paid for the previous return ticket be refunded as I have not used this service?

Would appreciate any help or advice that could assist me in this matter,

Thanks,

Marc.

dzug1

Im puzzled as to what happened - if you bought a return ticket then it would have been valid for a month - there are no day returns from London to Leeds so you couldn't have been sold one of them.

What did your email confirmation say about dates?

moonrakerz

MarcP wrote: »

- I had selected to return the next day online but the tickets had the incorrect date on the return, this is not my fault?
Can you prove that you selected the right date ?
- As I was visiting a relative in Hosptial why would I want to have only spent half an hour in Leeds? (this is what my ticket would have allowed)
Could you prove that you had been to the hospital at the time ? (Hospitals/Deaths are always worth a try to get sympathy/away with it)
- On boarding the return train from Leeds to London KX I showed my ticket to the train guard who let me through the barriers and had checked my ticket and seen nothing wrong with it, so it would appear that not only myself but a train employee had failed to spot this?
So ? Everyone makes mistakes - including entering the wrong date
- Why would I want to pay £119.50 + Admin for a train ticket that I have already paid for?
You didn't have a valid ticket for the date that were travelling.
- Should the fare that I have paid for the previous return ticket be refunded as I have not used this service?
Can you prove that you didn't use this ticket on the previous day ? Is it a refundable ticket anyway ?

That is NOT me being nasty to you That is what the ticket inspector would be asking you/himself. Go onto some of the rail forums and see some of the dodges/C & B stories that they get told by "professional" fare dodgers.
The bottom line is that you did not have a valid ticket on you - what he did was entirely correct I'm afraid.

robt_2

Gut feeling is you entered the wrong date.

Check your email confirmation of the booking before anything else