Weezl's phase 1- recipe testing and frugalisation- come one, come all!

hornetgirl

Just wanted to say sorry I haven't been around so much lately. I'm working full time this week, and sadly don't seem to be able to fit in as much as some of you guys do. I will be trying out the risi e bisi tomorrow though and will complete the survey. Sorry I can't help with the more technical stuff

nopot2pin

First things first...
Happy Birthday Weezl _party_

I hope your day has been delightful


Now, back to business :cool:
Just so I have this in my head right...

You want a survey, to find out, how many people, wish a very hard vegetarian/vegan approach to a B&S mealplan, including ethical, social, and healthy responsiblity issues that can be associated with such mealplans ?? :think:

And you want this in plain English speak ?? :think:

Hmmmmmmmmmm................

Ok... I have quoted 2 posts below, so I can find them easily for when I do the survey.

I am early shift at the moment, so there is no way I can get my head round anything this thought provoking at the moment (I am not a morning person:rotfl:)

But I finish tomorrow night, for a day or so, so will have a good old :think: about it then, and see what I come up with

If anyone thinks of any other questions that they think should be in it, just let me know.

:think::think::think::think::think:

Oh.... When do you need this by Weezl ??

I do believe I will have lots more questions about this, when I do start looking in to it.......

Bedtime for me now, up at 5am :eek:

weezl74 wrote: »

Lesley, you and I both uploaded new spreadsheets last night but that means that our changes are held in different places now:( which set of changes is easier to retrofit back into the other one do you think?:)

Aless, how many slices per loaf are you getting out of the paul merrett recipe split into 3 loaves? xxx

For my future research only (so Lesley doesn't have palpitations about keeping me on track!) Potty could you please write a survey to find out more about the needs/views/opinions of people who want planner 4 (ceridwen's 'hard nut' planner:), my understanding of this one is that it is designed to address the non-negotiable 'no/little processed foods') which was included in both mine and arty's polls)

I'd love it if it could contain the following questions:

omega 3: how can this be delivered? Rapeseed oil (if low erussic acid and not GM)? Pilchards? Other (please specify- and please for my sake ensure the ingredient you give does actually deliver O-3 )

calories: If not delivering any calories through sugar, how would you want these delivered?

sugar: which kinds are ok/not ok? ie is fructose the only acceptable sugar? And if so does it need to be still in the fruit? What can I use to sweeten things which have to be sweetened?

if no sugars, does that mean this is a planner with no pudding/cake/cereal bars at all and is that ok with people?

Processed food: please give your definition of what types of processing are acceptable and which are not. In particular please address the following: canning, large scale drying using chemical dessicants of fruits/vegetables (if not then no raisins, sun dried tomatoes, marrowfats, please suggest alternatives here, placing of fruits in a sulpherous environment to carry long haul whilst ripening, sealing in polyeurethane bags,milling (ie of flour) sifting (of flour into different grades), if no sifting, please state what you would like me to do about pasta, just not have any at all? Oils/fats how are these to be distilled from seed/fruit? If only to be cold-pressed please state how you would like me to address the trans-fat introduction that cooking will bring, or must these be consumed raw? Of dairy, is large vat incorporation of setting agents and machine splitting of curds and whey acceptable? If not, is home made paneer cheese the only cheese option, and what should I do about the fact that I need UHT milk to produce this, will I need to teach shirley 4 to ultra heat treat her milk at home? Eggs: is the injection of the chicken with the immunisation to salmonella enterides acceptable as a processing method or not? If no, please state does shirley 4 not eat eggs at all? Marmite and stock just not use them? Seasonings, just not use them? (all of those involving fortification, dessicant drying, extraction large scale (- salt) addition of anti-caking agents and preservatives. Is the type of packaging that's used of significance here?

There is more but I'll just pause there!

Potty I'll need you to work hard on the wording of that survey to give it your normal friendly tone! At the moment it sounds like the final exam in a very scary dietetics degree course Also as I read it back I wonder if you might be thinking I'm asking too much of you and the survey creating tool. Please do say if so. I'm aware you do a colossal amount of work in producing these and collecting the results, and you are an unsung hero!

How should we launch it? a survey thread linking to potty's survey entitled 'how far will you go to be healthy while saving money?' Or something?

SusanC wrote: »

I thought I'd answer the questions in case it's helpful in terms of preparing the survey:


I use tinned oily fish and flaxseed oil. The flax seed oil is expensive but you only use a very small amount at a time - I use it in things like home made mayonnaise, salad dressings, home made hummus (which also has tahini which is a good source) and almond butter (can't do peanut because OH is allergic to them). We also have pumpkin seed butter. Organic milk has higher omega 3 levels than non-organic milk. Also beans and olive oil are supposed to be good sources.


Having never had much sugar and having always considered it as a sweetener rather than as a main food group I don't entirely understand the specific replacement of sugar calories - I guess I just have more of everything else. (Maybe that's why people thought I was greedy though.)

I mainly use honey or date syrup in baking but do use sugar occasionally.
I wouldn't use fructose as it is still refined and stripped of its assosciated nutrients. Fructose has a low glycemic index which is why it is used by some as an alternative to regular sugar but that is when they are avoiding sugar for a different reason.
For sweetening things as opposed to baking, I personally don't think anything is needed (I would eat cooked rhubarb as is or mixed with plain unsweetened yoghurt for example) but because OH likes things sweeter, I use fruit (e.g. apple and sultanas) to sweeten things like porridge and honey for things like rhubarb yoghurt.

Puddings/cakes:
Our puddings or sweet snacks would be either sourdough fruit muffins made with datesyrup, sourdough fruit loaf (which has mixed fruit and a small amount of honey in it), home made fruit yoghurt or fruit. We do also occasionally have sugary puddings (such as crumble) and I also make low sugar jam for bread and jam because otherwise OH will feel the need for biscuits and cakes.


Personally I try to keep canned goods to a minimum and only things which are actual ingredients such as tomatoes or fish. I don't worry too much about drying methods and although I would prefer not to have sulphites, I think that would probably need to be left for people to substitute for sulphite free if they chose to at additional cost rather than being an integral part of the planner. Flour - I either grind my own or buy stoneground, wholemeal organic. For pasta, my long term aim is to make it but usually I just consider it a compromise item. Currently I do have wholemeal organic pasta as I got a good deal but personally would prioritise wholemeal over organic.


If memory serves me correctly, hydrogenated oils go rancid more quickly than naturally saturated fats which is one of the issues. Also, the issues with regard to trans fats seem to have come about since hydrogenation of fats came in which implies that the trans fats produced from cooking are insignificant relative to those deliberately produced. Another point is that if a more highly saturated fat is used then there will inevitably be less trans fats produced as there are less unsaturated fats present to become saturated. In general I would use olive oil raw and butter/lard/coconut oil in cooking/baking. (But as Ceridwen pointed out a vegetarian wouldn't use lard.)


I do use shop bought hard cheese but try to keep it to a minimum. (I'd probably say cheese is my biggest area of compromise.) I would never buy UHT milk - I probably wouldn't have milk if that was the only option. I make cream cheese by straining home made yoghurt with a tea towel.


I consider this acceptable.


I use home made stock, regular herbs/spices (except cinammon which I use so much of that it's cheaper to buy organic), traditionally brewed soy sauce, celtic sea salt and regular worcestor sauce. I figure that I use such small quantities of them that they are not as important to worry about as other things.

And Happy Birthday! :bdaycake:

ceridwen

Re a survey for a "hard nut" plan...

....boy...I wouldnt want to try and work out suggested questions for that......but I would venture to suggest that the proposed questions to date are WAY too complex a road to go down. I just see this as a dead basic considerations only one personally - ie wholemeal (not white), healthier oil than vegetable/rapeseed oil, very little or no sugar, no heavily processed food (eg it would be proper oats - instead of R***y Brek). I would see it as up to the person themselves whether to buy organic dried fruit (to avoid the sulphur dioxide) or stick to buying the conventional raisins (and accept they had that in).

Can I clarify whether this would be as per my suggestion - ie accepting that this Plan could not possibly fit within £100 per month (try as we might to achieve that) and I proposed that this one be for the incredibly cheap price of £200 per month - rather than the very very cheap indeed price of £100 per month (as per the other mealplanners).

It was seconded by another poster (name escapes my memory at the moment...) that they felt this would be a realistic figure for such a planner.

So - are we good to go on this particular Plan being a £200 a month-er?

ceridwen

Re the paneer cheese - I am puzzled by the reference to having to use UHT milk to make this. I know there is a recipe for paneer cheese on MSE that uses UHT milk - but I've just checked recipes on Google. Both the ones I came up with instantly use standard full-fat milk.

So - basically all round - I would pretty much go with what SusanC says - sounds like we have a very similar definition of "hard nut"....and certainly very much agree with seeing sugar as just sweetening and only one of various possibilities for that. I am puzzled by the idea of using sugar for the sake of making up calories towards that 1800? per day for a woman and 2,000 or so (cant recall exact figure) for a man. I wouldnt want to see a plan that says "okay - 1500 of your calories per day will be food and the rest will be made up from sugar to bring you to that 1800 or whatever figure". There are some prices too high to pay - and the subsequent possible health effects of using sugar for calories if that went on for long....eeekkk!

HowlinWolf

Ceridwen, I share your confusion, I make paneer with full fat fresh milk, a little salt and lemon juice. I would wonder about the effects on taste for UHT. According to the BBC you can then freeze it or store it in the fridge covered in water (think ball of mozzarella). I can't see any reason why it would have to be UHT milk that is used.

Sian_the_Green

ceridwen wrote: »

Re a survey for a "hard nut" plan...

So - are we good to go on this particular Plan being a £200 a month-er?

I admire you Ceridwen, and SusanC that you are following your ideals so closely but am really wary of this plan being added on to the £100 a month plan as I think it may totally terrify Shirley and Bob if they are trying to get their family out of debt, which we have discussed to be hideously detrimental to their health and then we suggest that they are slowly killing their children with additives and, as you put it "r***y brek"and sugar. It just smacks a little too much of more things to leave them in their pit of despair; "even if I follow Weezl's plan, look how I am still failing my family, why bother". I just don't want that to happen. I know that you care deeply about these things but our demographic is so different from you in the main that I don't want them to feel alienated, it makes me uneasy. :eek:

On a related note, our local independent cinema chain is going to be showing this next month

Hope this finds everyone well and happy

ceridwen

Back to an earlier post of mine.

I found the other two mealplanners by Gingham Ribbon:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=453694

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=399846

loads more recipes peeps might be interested in..

ceridwen

Sian_the_Green wrote: »

I admire you Ceridwen, and SusanC that you are following your ideals so closely but am really wary of this plan being added on to the £100 a month plan as I think it may totally terrify Shirley and Bob if they are trying to get their family out of debt, which we have discussed to be hideously detrimental to their health and then we suggest that they are slowly killing their children with additives and, as you put it "r***y brek"and sugar. It just smacks a little too much of more things to leave them in their pit of despair; "even if I follow Weezl's plan, look how I am still failing my family, why bother". I just don't want that to happen. I know that you care deeply about these things but our demographic is so different from you in the main that I don't want them to feel alienated, it makes me uneasy. :eek:

On a related note, our local independent cinema chain is going to be showing this next month

Hope this finds everyone well and happy

Oooh...I'm hoping that film comes to my area soon too...:)

Difficult...difficult...difficult....

I understand what you are saying - but it would be entirely up to Bob and Shirley which of the plans to go for. Even a £200 one would save them hundreds of £s per month on standard level food costs. It would be entirely their choice which to pick.

I think there is no way to avoid "uneasiness" altogether. I was sitting there today wondering just how often I would count the words "Ready Brek" in this thread so far and I would have long since lost count how often I could count the word "Asda".....and reacting with horror to the post a while back from someone to the effect that A*** might at some point consider suggesting our mealplan to consumers:eek:. I know that one particular supermarket has been specified originally in order to make life easier by just giving one supermarket name - rather than going:
Asda - £x and photo of their product
Tesco - £x and photo of their product
etc etc..

but it worries me that people may have deliberately gone to that particular supermarket on the one hand or bought a readymade junk food (that Ready Brek) on the other hand because they saw it on this thread....:( Hence...yet another reason...why I personally feel much happier about just specifying the generic name "porridge oats" (that could be from a variety of manufacturers) or sweetening (eg sugar/honey/molasses/etc) = loadsa different manufacturers (rather than the 2 firms solely responsible for all the sugar in Britain).

There is no way to keep all the people happy all the time is there?:(
- whether that means us on this thread or our mythical family.

I guess the phrase "You pays your money and you takes your choice" would be very applicable to Bob and Shirley here. They have freewill and it would be their choice which way to exercise it.

boredofbeingathome

weezl74 wrote: »

ISOM, BOB and ceridwen you are forbidden to comment on the above sentence even though I know you are itching to.

Like i wouldn't;) :rotfl: I personally prefer it to be wider and ..oh you said not to comment... so i will have to leave it hanging there...a little dangling participle:D:rotfl:

On another note- Many Happy Returns of the Day Weezl. I do hope you have had a good day which has been blessed in many ways.:A

ariarnia

ceridwen wrote: »

Oooh...I'm hoping that film comes to my area soon too...:)

Difficult...difficult...difficult....

I understand what you are saying - but it would be entirely up to Bob and Shirley which of the plans to go for. Even a £200 one would save them hundreds of £s per month on standard level food costs. It would be entirely their choice which to pick.

I think there is no way to avoid "uneasiness" altogether. I was sitting there today wondering just how often I would count the words "Ready Brek" in this thread so far and I would have long since lost count how often I could count the word "Asda".....and reacting with horror to the post a while back from someone to the effect that A*** might at some point consider suggesting our mealplan to consumers:eek:. I know that one particular supermarket has been specified originally in order to make life easier by just giving one supermarket name - rather than going:
Asda - £x and photo of their product
Tesco - £x and photo of their product
etc etc..

but it worries me that people may have deliberately gone to that particular supermarket on the one hand or bought a readymade junk food (that Ready Brek) on the other hand because they saw it on this thread....:( Hence...yet another reason...why I personally feel much happier about just specifying the generic name "porridge oats" (that could be from a variety of manufacturers) or sweetening (eg sugar/honey/molasses/etc) = loadsa different manufacturers (rather than the 2 firms solely responsible for all the sugar in Britain).

There is no way to keep all the people happy all the time is there?:(
- whether that means us on this thread or our mythical family.

I guess the phrase "You pays your money and you takes your choice" would be very applicable to Bob and Shirley here. They have freewill and it would be their choice which way to exercise it.

£25pp/pm is what the government allows on JSA and is with what I could comfortably live on eating ready meal crup if I wanted to. I thought we were trying to do better than that?