Rented house end of contract, deposit etc

N79

Lady_K wrote: »

Got in touch with tenancy relations and they told me they cant attend private rented accom for when she moves out. they passed me to the housing options scheme who are saying she has to give 1 months notice unlike shelter which said she is not obligated to to give notice at the end of a fixed term contract although it is polite to do so which she did last night, they state the break clause will not have effect as unfair clause on an ast. Don't know what to do now if she can move out or not

Who or what on earth are the housing options scheme as they clearly know f* all about English LL & T law.

However, for the no notice rule to be valid your daughter must vacate the property on the 18th including returning the keys to the LL or their agent on the 18th. This is vital as if she does not return the keys then a periodic tenancy will arise.

Lady_K

clutton wrote: »

Lady-K - you have been given soooo much advice by seriously well qualified folk, both here and by Shelter (local council officers generaly know naff-all about landlord and tenant legislation) - that i am at a loss as to why you are still confused.....

Shelter are THE experts on housing law, they have been doing it for decades.....

YOUR DAUGHTER DOES NOT HAVE TO GIVE NOTICE IF SHE MOVES OUT ON 18TH JANUARY...... end of....

just write a brief note saying that she is moving out on 18th and would like a checkout visit at 4.30. Then move, hand in the keys, then sort out the deposit afterwards..

As soon as you make a decision you will feel a lot better, all this dithering is making you feel ill......


how is your daughter viewing all this ?

Clutton I know I've had a lot of advise and I'm very grateful for that but I'm going to get confused and need to question it when Shelter says the keys can be left with the local council and the council say they can't, then the tenancy relations say they don't represent private tenants but shelter said they do and while contacting tenancy relations they said she does has to give 1 months notice. Its going to confuse me. Now I feel I need to know where it states by law that the tenancy break claus will not be effective as its an unfair claus so I can be totally sure plus have something to quote to the Agent to make things a bit easier

Would a police station accept the house keys if the Agent does not turn up?

My daughter does not use mse and is always extremely busy as a nurse she just has not got the time to deal with all this with the hours she works. When the agent called her back to say she had to do the extra 2 months she was just so fed up, shes had a lot of problems and really needs to move, she thought she had to accept it, she really doesnt have the time to fight this sort of thing so I wanted to enquire here for her

N79

I shouldn't really post this but I can see a disaster looming.....

Lady_K wrote: »

Clutton I know I've had a lot of advise and I'm very grateful for that but I'm going to get confused and need to question it when Shelter says the keys can be left with the local council and the council say they can't, then the tenancy relations say they don't represent private tenants but shelter said they do and while contacting tenancy relations they said she does has to give 1 months notice. Its going to confuse me. Now I feel I need to know where it states by law that the tenancy break claus will not be effective as its an unfair claus so I can be totally sure plus have something to quote to the Agent to make things a bit easier

Previously you said that Shelter said that sometimes councils will perform this function which is very different from saying that they will perform this function. Clearly your council does not offer this service. There is nothing to be confused about but you must hear what people say and not what you wanted them to say.

Did you explain to the tenancy relations that the AST has as non standard 7 month fixed period or did you just say that you daughter has been there for 7 months - this would explain their confusion.

There is no law on break clauses but even if there was it would not be relevant here.

Would a police station accept the house keys if the Agent does not turn up?

No No No...

Key must be returned to the LL or their agent on the 18th. No one else will do without the LL's prior written agreement. If the agent does not turn up then go and post the keys through the agent or LL's door (preferably with a witness although this is not essential).

My daughter does not use mse and is always extremely busy as a nurse she just has not got the time to deal with all this with the hours she works. When the agent called her back to say she had to do the extra 2 months she was just so fed up, shes had a lot of problems and really needs to move, she thought she had to accept it, she really doesnt have the time to fight this sort of thing so I wanted to enquire here for her

Standing up for your rights always takes effort. If your daughter just wants to be walked over all her life then that is her choice.

Lady_K

Sometimes meant if they have anyone available to be there, its now clear this is not provided for private tenants.

I explained it was a fixed term of 7 months and why it was fixed at that, because Christmas fell around the 6 month time.

Accepted it has to be the Agent or landlord to return keys to so now we have to find a way of doing that if he doesnt turn up which he most likely wont.

My daughter does not want to be walked over all of her life but she does not know all of the rules and the way the claus is written she thought like many people would that there was nothing she could do. Given the timescale and that she works full time long hours she does not have the time to deal with all of this on her own, me enquiring for her is not her allowing herself to be walked over, she just needs to know how to do it.

Phoned Shelter back to double check the claus, they now say the break claus is not very well worded but is not classed as an unfair term so 2 months notice does have to be served. They said the only advise they can give is leave on the expiration date and not a day before or a day later and hand the keys to the agent. I don't quite know how that works depite the claus but he said as long as its on the day its ok. Doubt the agent will turn up but if not it has to be through his premises if we can find them.

Still not going to say anything about the protected deposit as she will definitely go for this after she has left.

BitterAndTwisted

Lady_K, please, please accept the advice you have been given on here. Have your daughter write to the agent sending the letter by Recorded Delivery stating that as the AST is ending on the 18th of January she will need the agent present on that day in order to do the check-out, confirm the meter-readings, return the keys and make arrangements for the return of her deposit. Request that the agent contacts her by whatever means he likes to confirm a time when he will be present. None of this needs to be written in any kind of legalese, plain English will be fine as long as the agent is capable of understanding it. Also note that your daughter should keep a copy of this letter for future reference. She's probably going to need it.

Should the agent not respond or not show up on the 18th your daughter should take photos of the meter-readings, contact the utility company/s to give them the address of the landlord c/o the agent and give them the last meter-readings so they can forward the last bills to her new address. Then she should return the keys to the agent's office and if there is no-one there she must have a witness with her to confirm that the keys were posted through the letter-box together with a note to confirm which keys they are and her new address for her deposit to be forwarded.

The end.

The battle for return of the deposit can be left for another day but you WILL get help on here to deal with it if you need it, I promise you.

ETA: PLEASE DO NOT pay any attention to this 2-months notice codswallop. I believe Shelter have misunderstood. You DO NOT have to give any notice whatsoever when an AST comes to an end. You have been told this so many times on this thread and it is still true now. Do not concern yourself with this. I told you before the break-clause is a red-herring. This is because the agent isn't qualified to do the job he is charging the landlord for.

daska

Is your daughter using a removal firm? They might be prepared to witness the meter readings, photo of condition etc. if the LA doesn't turn up. (Access to an instant camera or a digital camera and printer can be useful for things like this as well.)

franklee

Lady_K wrote: »

Shelter have told me that although there is a clause in the contract the clause will have no effect on an AST because it will be seen as an unfair clause and she can move out on 18th as she wanted to providing there is no outstanding rent.

Correct, Your daughter can leave without notice so long as she doen't stay past the end of the fixed term she will owe rent just till the end of the fixed term. You have been given correct advice here many times already but as you now seem unconvinced: Extract from OFT 356 Guidance on unfair terms in tenancy agreements (September 2005) (OFT = Office of fair trading):

Page 31:

Notice not required for fixed term agreements

3.78 A tenant is not required to give notice to bring the tenancy to an end at the end of the fixed term. That is because a fixed term agreement comes to an end at the end of the fixed term, and no periodic tenancy will arise if the tenant then leaves. We appreciate that landlords will want to ensure that their properties are not left empty between tenancies, but object to terms that impose a contractual obligation on the tenant to give notice in order for the tenancy to be terminated at the end of the fixed term. This could allow the landlord to impose a substantial financial penalty on tenants who do not realise that notice is not required, by requiring them to pay rent for a period after the end of the fixed term. Terms such as this are not necessary to protect landlords from the possibility that their property will be left empty, as the law allows landlords to recover possession at the end of the fixed term by serving at least two months' notice, and they could do so where their current tenant fails to indicate when asked whether they intend to stay on. The landlord and tenant could of course still agree to a renewal of the tenancy even after such notice was served.

Get it here:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/publications/guidance/unfair-terms-consumer/

Or consult a solicitor, you can join Tessa's site for a small fee and look in there:

http://www.landlordlaw.co.uk/about.ihtml

Landlord zone also have legal experts but as your question is so standard they may say to search the forum as it has been answered many times over in there:

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3

Fire_Fox

I've skim read a lot of this thread so apologies if I am repeating but ... the 18th January is seven months and one day not seven months from the start of the tenancy (18th June). This seems to be another mistake on the part of the amateur landlord/ letting agents, but my understanding is that if you stay one day over the fixed term the AST becomes periodic and so one months notice in writing is required. To cover herself I think the daughter should move out by the 17th not the 18th.

clutton_2

FF you would, of course, normally be right but i think this extract from the AST could easily be construed as 18th being the final day.......


""Fixed Term for a period of: 7 months

The Term: The tenancy will be for a term from and including the 18th day of June 2009 ("The Commencement Date") to and including the 18th day of January 2010 ( "The expiration date")

Lady_K

She would happily move out on the 17th as she is actually off work that day for a change but the Shelter man said it had to be the exact expiration day 18th, not sure why. Also as 17th is a Sunday we thought it would be even less likely for the agent to turn up so we thought best to keep it to the Monday although it will only be the evening that she can meet the Agent there unless its ok for someone else to do that for her in her place earlier in the day.

daska, good idea didnt think of that one but she is not using a removal van. Whatever happens there will be plenty of photos taken of the house and meters and we will get witnesses at the house and posting the keys if agent does not turn up.

franklee, do you think she should quote the Extract from OFT when informing the agent that she will definitely be moving out on 18th Jan as he might not even know about that himself seeing as hes messed up on various things. He might be more likely to bring the deposit with him if he turns up at the house on moving day if its clear why shes doing it