CAA request updates / results part 2

never-in-doubt

cocker100 wrote: »

Sorry, just read that back and it is a bit waffley!

Basically what I mean is what would take priority in court in each situation?

Senario 1

Dodgy looking illegible application form or the probability of an enforceable agreement?

The rules are simple - the prescribed terms must be present on the signature page (or link to it). So whether it is an app form or a twix wrapper, so long as the prescribed terms and signature are present then it is enforceable. If they aren't, then it debatable and/or unenforceable.

Senario 2

Good quality application form that could be judged as enforceable, but an actual credit agreement that is not enforceable?

As above, the basics must be met before entering advanced arguments like this. No signature/prescribed terms = unenforceable no matter how much we mince the words.


Any ideas?

Cocker:)

See response above in red lol

never-in-doubt

pebbles88 wrote: »

hey NID,

well no reply from Tesco, but Triton are certainly staying in touch,

they have replied today asking for a financial statement, which they already have :mad: and are also wanting lists of

Hiya am I right in thinking you sent this to Tesco, no response to date? #240

If so, then send this to Triton and then await a response from Tesco as planned:

Dear Sirs,

Account No: XXXXXXXX

I write with reference to recent communication regarding the above numbered account and what can only be described as your totally unreasonable demands.

I recently sent you a copy of the same letter I sent the original creditor, Tesco. As I do not acknowledge Triton in anything to do with this account, other than to send you copies of documents (at the moment), take note that any threat or question you raise with me will simply be ignored.

I await my response from the people with whom I took out the facility and until such time they respond I suggest you back off before I seek enforcement against you for harrassment. If you have any questions then contact Tesco in line with current legislation.

I do not expect a response to this letter as there is nothing left to say to you.

Yours faithfully

Sign digitally

cocker100

cocker100 wrote: »

Sorry, just read that back and it is a bit waffley!

Basically what I mean is what would take priority in court in each situation?

Senario 1

Dodgy looking illegible application form or the probability of an enforceable agreement?

Senario 2

Good quality application form that could be judged as enforceable, but an actual credit agreement that is not enforceable?


Any ideas?

Cocker:)

Ah, glad you looked at this N-I-D!!!:beer:

The reason I ask is I came across this type of situation whilst searching through the CAG website. However, it was one of those threads that build you up to expect a great ending, only to just stop and go silent for months!!!:(

The Cagger had requested CCA using s78 and the creditor had replied with the original application form. There was debate as to whether it was enforceable or not, but to me it looked ok, as it was signed by the debtor and had prescribed terms on. But some people were questioning if they were legible enough to be enforced, however I think this was probably down to a low quality scanner rather than the text itself!!!

But, the cagger also was one of those who keeps all old paperwork and still had what he believed was the ACTUAL credit agreement that he received after completing the application form and being accepted for the card. This was received a couple of weeks later along with his shiney new card. This "agreement" did not contain his signature or that of the creditor, but did fully comply with the prescirbed terms. However, there was 100% agreement that was not at all enforceable - obviously due to a lack of a signature.

So, does this "agreement" superseed the application form and therefore the debt cannot be enforced. Or, does the application form alone still allow enforcement. Is there set law for this or like you have previously said, is it down to the judge on the day?

Cocker:)

never-in-doubt

cocker100 wrote: »

Ah, glad you looked at this N-I-D!!!:beer:

Why don't I believe you lol (I seach for the word unenforceable and so it brings me to these questions lol) - Honest!

cocker100 wrote: »

The reason I ask is I came across this type of situation whilst searching through the CAG website. However, it was one of those threads that build you up to expect a great ending, only to just stop and go silent for months!!!:(

Remember this is MSE and we tend to go into detail to the point of taking action, at which point we say it may be best to walk away.... CAG prefer to have 100 people all helping to take the battle to the lender, but as you can see a lot lose because for one, too many people with too much knowledge doesn't always look good nor does it guarantee a victory. What I mean is sometimes it is best to admit defeat and walk away which rarely happens in the long threads on CAG.

cocker100 wrote: »

The Cagger had requested CCA using s78 and the creditor had replied with the original application form. There was debate as to whether it was enforceable or not, but to me it looked ok, as it was signed by the debtor and had prescribed terms on. But some people were questioning if they were legible enough to be enforced, however I think this was probably down to a low quality scanner rather than the text itself!!!

An illegible copy cannot be enforced - no. It has to be legible, legible meaning you should be able to understand and see the prescribed terms and also signatures.

cocker100 wrote: »

But, the cagger also was one of those who keeps all old paperwork and still had what he believed was the ACTUAL credit agreement that he received after completing the application form and being accepted for the card. This was received a couple of weeks later along with his shiney new card. This "agreement" did not contain his signature or that of the creditor, but did fully comply with the prescirbed terms. However, there was 100% agreement that was not at all enforceable - obviously due to a lack of a signature.

Agreed - i'm the first to say it needs to be signed - but not to comply with a CCA request (specifically s.78). They are allowed to send a reconstituted copy or legally a 'true copy' which can omit the signature box. So, it is then up to the debtor to prove that they don't have the original without which, no court action can ever be taken.

cocker100 wrote: »

So, does this "agreement" superseed the application form and therefore the debt cannot be enforced. Or, does the application form alone still allow enforcement. Is there set law for this or like you have previously said, is it down to the judge on the day?

Cocker:)

The agreement that they sent is not signed so it would be deemed unenforceable. If they produce a version that was signed that contained the prescribed terms then it is enforceable. The fact they sent the client a copy with the card means little, not all of these are signed but so long as they kept the application form or signed agreement from the client (debtor) then they will win in court. A judge would follow the rules, as per my signature.

cocker100

never-in-doubt wrote: »

The agreement that they sent is not signed so it would be deemed unenforceable. If they produce a version that was signed that contained the prescribed terms then it is enforceable. The fact they sent the client a copy with the card means little, not all of these are signed but so long as they kept the application form or signed agreement from the client (debtor) then they will win in court. A judge would follow the rules, as per my signature.

The creditor couldn't produce an "agreement" with the signature because the debtor already has the actual original agreement (unsigned and sent with card) - not through issuing a CCA request. If they did, he could prove that it had been tampered with!

They do however have his signature on the application form and with prescribed terms too. (Most probably legible, so enforceable) This is sent to debtor with CCA request.

So am I reading it right, that they can use this application form to enforce even though the debtor has the unenforceable "agreement" to hand? (Sorry for rambling, its getting late and i've had a busy day at work!!!:o)

Time to log off soon me thinks!

Cocker:)

never-in-doubt

cocker100 wrote: »

The creditor couldn't produce an "agreement" with the signature because the debtor already has the actual original agreement (unsigned and sent with card) - not through issuing a CCA request. If they did, he could prove that it had been tampered with!

They do however have his signature on the application form and with prescribed terms too. (Most probably legible, so enforceable) This is sent to debtor with CCA request.

So am I reading it right, that they can use this application form to enforce even though the debtor has the unenforceable "agreement" to hand? (Sorry for rambling, its getting late and i've had a busy day at work!!!:o)

Time to log off soon me thinks!

Cocker:)

An agreement form that has the signature and prescribed terms is enforceable, so is a mars bar wrapper.... its not the piece of paper its written on so much as what is written on it; that matters.

gems3286

Hi All,

Needing a little help.

I had sent of my letter requesting my cca from lowells in nov 09. They then sent me a letter stating that they would have to get in touch with the orig debt company to get this and that they would let me know as soon as they found this.

Didn't here anything from them at all so last week i sent them the reminder letter. Then yestersay got a letter back say that the oirg debt company could not find the cca as it was an old debt and that they would now close this and not come for further payment unless they could find the cca.

just wondering what do i do now? I.e i know i don't pay anything but i just dont want them to come back to me in a years time and say they have found it now and that i have to pay it off.

Any help would be great.

Cheers

Gem

pebbles88

never-in-doubt wrote: »

Hiya am I right in thinking you sent this to Tesco, no response to date? #240

If so, then send this to Triton and then await a response from Tesco as planned:

morning,

yes that was what i sent them, i wasnt aware i could refuse to deal with Triton unti Tesco said so, with Triton being in the next room to them in all, which is what annoys me so much as its essentially the same sodding company who already have the details!! ggrrr


anyhow, thanks again NID, will get that letter sorted and posted today. youre a star!:A

cocker100

gems3286 wrote: »

Hi All,

Needing a little help.

I had sent of my letter requesting my cca from lowells in nov 09. They then sent me a letter stating that they would have to get in touch with the orig debt company to get this and that they would let me know as soon as they found this.

Didn't here anything from them at all so last week i sent them the reminder letter. Then yestersay got a letter back say that the oirg debt company could not find the cca as it was an old debt and that they would now close this and not come for further payment unless they could find the cca.

just wondering what do i do now? I.e i know i don't pay anything but i just dont want them to come back to me in a years time and say they have found it now and that i have to pay it off.

Any help would be great.

Cheers

Gem

Hiya,

I think you can safely say that they will NEVER find the cca due to it being so old. OC has must likely destroyed it by now.:D

So basically, YOU HAVE WON!!!:j:beer:
If anyone trys to come back at you further down the line, just repeat the process you have just done and they'll go away!

Also remember, after 6 years (5 if in Scotland) of you not paying, it will become statute barred and they will never be able to come after you for it even if they did find the cca!:D

Well done!!!:beer:

Cocker:)

never-in-doubt

gems3286 wrote: »

Hi All,

Needing a little help.

I had sent of my letter requesting my cca from lowells in nov 09. They then sent me a letter stating that they would have to get in touch with the orig debt company to get this and that they would let me know as soon as they found this.

Didn't here anything from them at all so last week i sent them the reminder letter. Then yestersay got a letter back say that the oirg debt company could not find the cca as it was an old debt and that they would now close this and not come for further payment unless they could find the cca.

just wondering what do i do now? I.e i know i don't pay anything but i just dont want them to come back to me in a years time and say they have found it now and that i have to pay it off.

Any help would be great.

Cheers

Gem

Hi - as replied here: #2214