Bit of advice r.e incident at work

-BA-

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

They may not be equal offences but the OP was the first person to be in the wrong and could be said to have provoked the incident.

An LSA who plans to become a teacher has more reason than a dinner lady to have to take a "professional" attitude. Dinner ladies are an essential part of the school community but they aren't "professionals"!

Where the heck in any of my posts have I said that a dinnerlady is an any less professional role? Nowhere. This is not an issue of job role! Throughout my posts I have always referred to their relationship as colleagues.

Provoking the situation?!?! OP walked through a door with pupils and didn't let a lady through for god's sake, yes it was thoughtless, yes it was unchivalrous, some may view it as unprofessional but where in the handbook does it state the children are less important than the teachers?!?!

The outburst was a whole different matter and was without doubt unprofessional.

For the record this is coming from someone who has been brought up with very traditional values on courtesy and I am very proud to uphold them, even when a "lady" glares daggers at me for daring to hold a door open for them or makes no effort to say thank you.

I am however able to differentiate between unprofessional and discourteous.

andygb

pinkshoes wrote: »

They were over-excitable Y7 pupils in their first few weeks at big school, bustling down the corridoor, and the OP was chatting to one in the group. If the dinnerlady had any manners, she would have seen the OP was occupied, and given way graciously to the group of kids.

Manners are manners, but it works both ways. Youngsters should also be given respect.

I would ignore the incident, but if it EVER happens again, then in private let her know that she has no right to speak to you like that infront of the pupils, and you would appreciate it if she treated you with a little respect in future.

Youngsters should "earn" respect, just like anyone else, and if they behave like a noisy uncontrollable rabble in school, unaware of people around them, showing a lack of consideration for their elders, then they will not get any "respect".
We are in an age where youths stab and shoot each other for "dissing" - DISRESPECTING. When did this all start? When did we have to go around, treading on eggshells, being careful not to upset children?
Perhaps the old maxims, of being quiet and not running in corridors is out of fashion, it has been replaced with new ideals. It seems that children are now praised if they have a bit of "attitude", or if they are noisy, then perhaps they are very "independent".
The dinner lady probably should not have shouted at the OP, but she should have had a quiet word with him, about setting an example to younger pupils.

juliescot

andygb wrote: »

I may be a little old fashioned but here are my views:
We were taught good manners at school, to open doors for people, to say please and thank you.
However, in certain schools, dinner ladies and caretakers were often treated as second class citizens by some of the pupils. I went to a good school, and I can remember my class being given a lecture by the head master, the day after an incident where a pupil swore at a dinner lady.
If these pupils lack awareness in the school, where there is supposed to be discipline, then what will they be like outside school.
A few nights ago, my missus and I went for a walk around our village, and where the local shops are, there was a group of youngsters (half a dozen 10 12 year olds?) with bikes blocking the way. They showed no sign of moving to let us through, despite having noticed us. When one of them looked at me, I said tersely "you are blocking the footpath". One of the others then said "say excuse me then".
I am sorry to say that I swore at the lad, and they all moved rather quickly. You see, we do not have any children, so we do not regard them as "Mummy's little darlings". We are realistic, and if you do not teach children manners, discipline and respect in the school, then their behaviour outside will be unacceptable.[/QUOTE]

Well done and I am sure swearing at the children will mean that their respect for you has increased.:rolleyes:

Oldernotwiser

-BA- wrote: »

Where the heck in any of my posts have I said that a dinnerlady is an any less professional role? Nowhere. This is not an issue of job role! Throughout my posts I have always referred to their relationship as colleagues.


I am however able to differentiate between unprofessional and discourteous.

I was the one who was making the distinction between professionalism expected of a teacher/LSA as compared to a dinnerlady, not you!

I agree that the behaviour wasn't equally wrong but that doesn't mean that an apology wouldn't be appropriate.

andygb

-BA- wrote: »

OP walked through a door with pupils and didn't let a lady through for god's sake, yes it was thoughtless, yes it was unchivalrous, some may view it as unprofessional but where in the handbook does it state the children are less important than the teachers?!?!

I believe that you are wrong, thinking like this, and this is why many youngsters have difficulty with discipline in the workplace. We knew that our teachers were more important than us. We knew that they had more knowledge than us, and we had no difficulty in telling who was in charge. From the moment we entered school, we were shown to respect the teachers, a very good lesson for later life, when you have to learn how to respect your boss (and if you do not, then prepare to resign or be sacked). If young children are not going to respect certain rules of society, then heaven help us.

juliescot

andygb wrote: »

I believe that you are wrong, thinking like this, and this is why many youngsters have difficulty with discipline in the workplace. We knew that our teachers were more important than us. We knew that they had more knowledge than us, and we had no difficulty in telling who was in charge. From the moment we entered school, we were shown to respect the teachers, a very good lesson for later life, when you have to learn how to respect your boss (and if you do not, then prepare to resign or be sacked). If young children are not going to respect certain rules of society, then heaven help us.

Respect is earned and I have worked for, and indeed with, some people for whom I have had no respect at all.

andygb

juliescot wrote: »

andygb wrote: »

I may be a little old fashioned but here are my views:
We were taught good manners at school, to open doors for people, to say please and thank you.
However, in certain schools, dinner ladies and caretakers were often treated as second class citizens by some of the pupils. I went to a good school, and I can remember my class being given a lecture by the head master, the day after an incident where a pupil swore at a dinner lady.
If these pupils lack awareness in the school, where there is supposed to be discipline, then what will they be like outside school.
A few nights ago, my missus and I went for a walk around our village, and where the local shops are, there was a group of youngsters (half a dozen 10 12 year olds?) with bikes blocking the way. They showed no sign of moving to let us through, despite having noticed us. When one of them looked at me, I said tersely "you are blocking the footpath". One of the others then said "say excuse me then".
I am sorry to say that I swore at the lad, and they all moved rather quickly. You see, we do not have any children, so we do not regard them as "Mummy's little darlings". We are realistic, and if you do not teach children manners, discipline and respect in the school, then their behaviour outside will be unacceptable.[/QUOTE]

Well done and I am sure swearing at the children will mean that their respect for you has increased.:rolleyes:

Exactly the response I would have expected from you, given your earlier posting.
So, what would you have done in my position? Would you have calmly and meekly said "excuse me", as you had been ordered to by a ten year old (NB. this is an approximation of age)?

-BA-

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

I was the one who was making the distinction between professionalism expected of a teacher/LSA as compared to a dinnerlady, not you!

I agree that the behaviour wasn't equally wrong but that doesn't mean that an apology wouldn't be appropriate.

READ post #26 and you will see I recommended apologising for part in situation but to absolutely not accept the behavious that was reciprocated.

As for your comment re. professionalism:

'An LSA who plans to become a teacher has more reason than a dinner lady to have to take a "professional" attitude. Dinner ladies are an essential part of the school community but they aren't "professionals"!'

Behaving professionally is not about whether your job role falls within a category of professional. Good lord is that seriously how you think? Do you think HR would say, "Oh she is just a dinnerlady it's ok for her to shout at a member of staff in the corridor infront of students?"

They are colleagues, their worthiness of the term professional is dictated by the fact they are in employment.

-BA-

andygb wrote: »

I believe that you are wrong, thinking like this, and this is why many youngsters have difficulty with discipline in the workplace. We knew that our teachers were more important than us. We knew that they had more knowledge than us, and we had no difficulty in telling who was in charge. From the moment we entered school, we were shown to respect the teachers, a very good lesson for later life, when you have to learn how to respect your boss (and if you do not, then prepare to resign or be sacked). If young children are not going to respect certain rules of society, then heaven help us.

Having respect for someone does not make them more important. Someone feeling they are more important due to status is grounds for losing that respect pretty damn quickly.

Problem here is that you are looking at the emotion of, "OMG OP didn't hold the door open for a lady and set a really poor example for the children. Now they are going to be the next candidates for Columbine!"

I have already agreed the situation was thoughtless but it was not worthy of a public outburst infront of the students!

juliescot

andygb wrote: »

juliescot wrote: »

Exactly the response I would have expected from you, given your earlier posting.
So, what would you have done in my position? Would you have calmly and meekly said "excuse me", as you had been ordered to by a ten year old (NB. this is an approximation of age)?

Which means what exactly?

I would have told them that they were blocking the pavement and should have some consideration for other users of said pavement. I would not have had to resort to swearing at them.