Diesel vs Petrol

sebdangerfield

missile wrote: »

Hmmm, it did win three times :T

Maybe not what you would call a performance car:rolleyes: the Audi A3 2.0 TDI makes less power but more torque than A3 2.0TFSI. I would suggest torque is as important as bhp. On a journey from Lands End to John O'groats which would get there first?

I am not suggesting diesel is better than petrol. IMHO the choice is not as simple nor as clear cut as you are suggesting. PS: I currently own a diesel AND a petrol car.

To date, it's won 15 times including 4 le mans and two le man series including the petit le mans.

In a journey from lands end to john o'groats the one driven fastest would definately win.

missile

sebdangerfield wrote: »

To date, it's won 15 times including 4 le mans and two le man series including the petit le mans.

Hm ....... proves my point :rotfl:

goldspanners

sebdangerfield wrote: »

Exactly, the main reason hire companies used diesels more was because of public demand and resale. Because their customers wanted diesels to hire because of the market trend, thats what they hired out. Equally, because people's perseptions of diesels were so high because of clever marketing, high mpg etc they were worth more come the resale at the end of their life relative to the petrols.

I think this is changing slowly now.

Many people still try to argue that diesels are now more powerfull than petrol equivalents but very rarely use a real equivalent. For example, someone used the figures of the 320 petrol against the 325 diesel. Ultimately, a four cylinder non turbo against a 6 cylinder turbo. Hardly equivalent. BMW are still getting c240bhp from the diesel 6 cylinder lump against c270bhp from the petrol one. The gulf even bigger with the twin turbo ones. There really are very few genuine equivalent petrols and diesels where the diesels are more powerful.

People also use the frugillity argument but this is parodoxical when in the next breath they talk about how powerful it is. Surely if you buy a car to be quick and powerful then you're not buying it to be cheap to run? Similarly, if you buy a diesel you are buying it to be cheaper to run than the petrol and therefore performence isn't the most important deciding factor.

The biggest change between the two fuels in recent times are repair bills. Diesel engines used to be mildley more frugal than petrols but were so simple they would last forever. Now however, more technology has eaked more power, refinement and efficiency from the engines and as a result they are so complicated that they no longer last a lifetime and cost an enormous lot more should certain components fail. I've reported on here a few times of the 335d I owned for a while. I was hugely impressed with the technology and how far the engines have developed but it's still not a performence car and with a bill for nearly £4000 when the injectors failed I was less than impressed. People believe that they can have few benifits of diesels of old like reliability and longevity but with the modern refinements engineered into them. It's not just not possible. There is now far more to go wrong with a modern diesel engine and now we're into the 5-7 years after the surge in popularity of modern diesels we are seeing much more expensive and common failures.

For me, the most laughable 'benefit' to running a diesel are the green credentials. A few years ago the government decided to tax our cars relative to the emmissions they spew out. They had a plethora of horrible chemicals to choose from like corbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, differing horrible hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides. The government chose to use carbon dioxide as the yard stick and it just happens that thats pretty much the only gas diesels cars produce less of than diesels. Diesels really aren't greener. They're far far more polluting, for this reason diesel particulate filter technologys are being produced for when another re-think happens and cars are measured by the other gasses they produce. Diesel particulate filters.......... now weren't we talking about them the other day!?

I know I come accross as hating of diesels but I'm not. I'm not a fan because I prefer performence cars and diesels, even the powerful ones, are always the more economical choice and therfore not focussed enough for me. However, because of diesel technology we now have improvements to petrol engines like fsi and better turbo scolling so I'm massivley gratefull of the technology they've provided, I just think that people should get ralisting about their expectations of what diesels can do.

this is something ive been saying on here for ages now, folk get all defensive when they think your slagging thier beloved diesels.

i drive both petrol and diesel,and enjoy the benefits of both,but the only difference is the petrol is mine, the diesel is the companies. i would dread having some of the diesel repair bills to pay myself. there isn't much on my petrol car that would cost more than £200 to repair, the diesel however is a very different story.

hillcats

Personally I have had Diesel cars for years as used to drive high miles for work at different locations possibly everyday, I would never go back to Petrol as they are just not economical at all when compared to a DERV.
Currently own a VW PASSAT 130BHP 1.9 TDi 2005(05) with a Tiptronic box (Lovely Drive....) which only has average miles on it, 43k.
I would only buy DIESEL, TIPTRONIC (AUTO) and VW personally.

sebdangerfield

missile wrote: »

Hm ....... proves my point :rotfl:

That it's won three times? Simple maths would say my post detailing 15 wins says it doesn't!

Goldspanners, I know you've said similar things for ages, I think it's just people are unwilling to to see it..... wait for the bills in another couple of years!

I find it really interesting, many people are willing to criticise and fairly review things they've bought like music and clothes but when it comes to cars there's some sort of pride stopping people admitting where their car fails.

I fully understand the benefits of diseasel in the right context, Hillcats is a perfect example; He wants the nice, easy, economical drive a diesel Passat with a tiptronic box will give. If thats what you want I'd be hard pushed to suggest a better car for his wishes. It's when people start to make excuses like 'they're more powerfull now' and 'they're better for the environment'. It's just not true, you may as well just admit you don't want to pay for real performence.

motorguy

goldspanners wrote: »

this is something ive been saying on here for ages now, folk get all defensive when they think your slagging thier beloved diesels.

i drive both petrol and diesel,and enjoy the benefits of both,but the only difference is the petrol is mine, the diesel is the companies. i would dread having some of the diesel repair bills to pay myself. there isn't much on my petrol car that would cost more than £200 to repair, the diesel however is a very different story.

Its because often anti diesel perceptions are based on age old stereotype by people who havent driven a good modern diesel.

Also, you very often find its the petrol owners on the 'attack' that cause the defensive of the diesel owners. - and often with very narrow minded naive viewpoints - 'uhhh diesels are !!!!! because they're really slow'. Those same petrol owners tend to be narrow minded about diesel cars, yet often (like yourself) diesel drivers can see both sides viewpoints.

I'd suggest injection systems, turbo (- if your petrol car has one), head gasket, ECU, gearbox problems, and then any significant electric issue would blow your £200 theory.

I still think a well maintained diesel will give very little trouble. My dad ran a Vauxhall Astra TD for 250,000 miles and it had no issues at all (it still had the original exhaust!), but often services are scrimped on and cheap fuels used.

sebdangerfield

missile wrote: »

Hmmm, it did win three times :T

Maybe not what you would call a performance car:rolleyes: the Audi A3 2.0 TDI makes less power but more torque than A3 2.0TFSI. I would suggest torque is as important as bhp. QUOTE]

But similarly, the petrol A3 can do 0-60 in 6.4 seconds whilst even the most powerful diesel can only do it in 7.4 seconds...... mmmm feel those extra torques in that slower, expensive to maintain car!

Meanwhile, the most powerful 2.0Tfsi has 260 ish bhp and 5.3 secoonds to 60 compared to the most powerful diesel with less than 170. From the company who've won 15 lmc events with a diesel race car, why don't they use diesel in their perfomence road cars?

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/specs/Summary.aspx?model=61

sebdangerfield

pgilc1 wrote: »

Its because often anti diesel perceptions are based on age old stereotype by people who havent driven a good modern diesel.

Also, you very often find its the petrol owners on the 'attack' that cause the defensive of the diesel owners. - and often with very narrow minded naive viewpoints - 'uhhh diesels are !!!!! because they're really slow'. Those same petrol owners tend to be narrow minded about diesel cars, yet often (like yourself) diesel drivers can see both sides viewpoints.

I'd suggest injection systems, turbo (- if your petrol car has one), head gasket, ECU, gearbox problems, and then any significant electric issue would blow your £200 theory.

I still think a well maintained diesel will give very little trouble. My dad ran a Vauxhall Astra TD for 250,000 miles and it had no issues at all (it still had the original exhaust!), but often services are scrimped on and cheap fuels used.

But thats our point, an Astra TD is hardly full of the technology which causes so many of the problems. Thats the typre of engine I'm specifically saying is why diesel owners misakenly believe diesels are still bullet proof.

Re the injection systems, the point I believe we're trying to make is that it's far more common and far, far more expensive on a diesel.

missile

sebdangerfield wrote: »

That it's won three times? .

I should have said that car won Le Mans three times in a row, gee thanks for pointing out other victories :rolleyes:
Don't take yourself so seriously - no one else does:rotfl:

slummymummyof3

I love our two diesels and they are both Japanese cars!