Can OS be ethical?

joebloggs69

Eels100 thanks for the thought provoker. As far as I understand it the best thing to do in terms of meat is to stop eating it all together - for various reasons. Falling short of that I understand that a Soil Association Organic Standard label is the best indicator of good animal welfare, but I'm glad you opened my eyes to the 'its organic, it must be good' trap. Unfortunately the organics fad has also helped to make it more like a designer logo rather than an indicator.

moggins

It's very true that we seem to have confused Organic with sympathetically reared when in reality Organic started because of people being afraid of what was going into their own bodies via their food not because of any real care about how the animal was reared, better conditions was just an offshoot of this.

I feed organic milk to my children because I don't want my kids pumped full of the growth hormone they give cattle and I buy free range eggs because I can't stand the thought of battery hens - two different products from two different ranges for two completely different reasons.

I will go organic, free range etc when I can but to me charity begins at home and what is best for my family will always come first.

Loadsabob

Eels100, I suppose the problem with your argument is that it suggests immunisation against disease = good animal welfare.

So using your argument, animals crammed into sheds and barns in discomfort and overcrowding, fed on poor diets and hormones, and pumped full of anti-biotics but vaccinated against lots of diseases would = better animal welfare than free range organic animals not vaccinated against disease?

I don't see it the same way, I'm afraid. It's a quite limited view of animal welfare.

Anyone can read more about Organic farming and animal welfareHere

To be more confident of good animal welfare, if I ate meat, I would confidently go for organic free range. Its unlikely to be beyond reproach, but I think it's the best assurance I could get short of buying direct from small local farms (which would be my first choice)

puffinmuffin

The RSPCA Freedom Foods label is an indicator of good animal welfare. I am not a veggie but very particular about the provenence of my meat. As ethically reared meat is expensive we are pretty much veggie at home, it takes a lot of imagination to come up with interesting meat-free meals but actually works out quite cheap. the things you can do with a 40p tin of chickpeas!

calleyw

So all farmers who don't hold organic status don't care for the welfare of there animals.

And pump them full of drugs they don't need. Rather a sweeping statement.

I mean even organic farmers are allowed to feed non-organic feed stuffs to there animals. As long as it dose not exceed 5% per year.

And don't get me started on organic food stuffs coming from outside of the UK.

If every farmer went organic there would a huge rise in food costs. It may come down as more farmers come on stream. But to start with all food costs would rise.

I agree it is nice to be able to feed where you know the animals have been treated as you want to treat them. But this is the real world. And as a vast majority of people are earning less than the national average wage of £24K and bringing up a family. I don't see how they can afford to be organic and free range. Unless prices drop dramatically.


Yours


Calley

Eels100

moggins wrote:

I feed organic milk to my children because I don't want my kids pumped full of the growth hormone they give cattle and I buy free range eggs because I can't stand the thought of battery hens - two different products from two different ranges for two completely different reasons.

Eek! There's no growth hormone given to cattle in the UK - the US is a different story, but you can rest assured there's nothing of that ilk in UK cattle, or their milk.

Don't even get me started on battery vs free range - it's barn eggs for me every time, unless I can get my hands on some proper, REALLY fresh local ones!

My meat comes from local farms, where I can see the welfare standards and the health of the cattle first hand, and minimal live transport has been involved. It's also of an immensely superior quality to other sources, and can be prepared to my preferences.

To Loadsabob, I don't recall mentioning vaccination at all in my previous post. It's true that vaccination improves both welfare and productivity. It's simply not true that animals are fed hormones in this country. Antibiotics are widely used in veterinary medicine, but these are not allowed to enter the food chain. There are strict maximum residue limits (MRLs) on all animal medicines, and samples from abbatoirs are tested regularly to ensure food safety.

I think the basic point we can all agree on here is that it is the individual's responsibility to identify what's important to them as regards their food, and to educate themselves adequately on where to source their food accordingly.

Petal_3

This is of real interest to me. I constantly battle with my conscience v purse! I need to cut food shopping bills down to a minimum. I do my bulk store cupboard type shopping online with Tesco (and I really want to stop that as soon as finances allow) - I have organic milk delivered by Milkie and I buy organic eggs (they taste so much nicer). I used to always buy cruelty free cosmetics/toiletries but must admit I have slipped on that one. My brain goes into overdrive when I try to think about the right/wrong products to buy/companies to deal with/buy from etc etc.

Did you see the news last night on the treatment of turkeys by some of the staff at Bernard Matthews? Absolutely sickening....

~x~

Loadsabob

Just to reiterate my point on organic meat - "Its unlikely to be beyond reproach"... but perhaps less unlikely than your average supermarket meat.

Regarding non-organic meat and growth hormones, I was talking generally, as a lot of people are buying supermarket meat from outside of the UK.

Yes, I live in the real world, too, earning less than 2/3 of the average national wage, so it means making difficult decisions when shopping, doesn't it? I don't buy imported organic food. I'd rather go without potatoes than buy Egyptian organic, that defeats the object for me. I think a lot of organic produce comes from good motivation, but personally, I feel that once the supermarkets get involved, as we've discussed on here many times, the whole thing becomes a cynical money-making exercise, and they think nothing of trying to flog "organic" imports to shoppers who don't read the labels, or who think just buying organic is the main thing.

I agree, Eels100, I think we're all quite informed consumers here, but to take on the correct ethical stance in everything, we'd have to tie ourselves in knots. Each person's ethical choices come about through prioritising, and on limited incomes, even moreso.

Loadsabob

£Ronnie wrote:

Just feel really confused as to how to start the ball rolling in our house on this without having a negative affect somewhere....

I think "baby steps" is the way to go. Little things that make a difference. I think OS if full of tips on living more sustainably, and often more ethically, and picking up little tips along the way, we're all making a bit of a difference when you consider the lifestyles we COULD be living.

OS cleaning is ethical compared to the chemical alternatives. Flushing vinegar, bicarb and cola down the drain is a little less harmful to the waterways, I hope, than bleach and limescale remover. That sort of thing.

I guess the starting point for ethical living is - what really matters most to you? Your priority may be animal welfare, it may be sustainable farming, organic produce, supporting the local economy and producers, supporting fairtrade initiatives abroad, recycling, reducing your packaging use, not flying, not supporting big business, reducing chemicals in your homes, chosing a "green" car, getting rid of your car!....It's a seemingly endless list.

If you work out what's most important to you, doesn't mean the other things aren't, but some things maybe have to wait, or go on the back burner. If we all do a bit, and we're probably all doing different bits, then we all affect the whole in a positive way...

MrsTinks

I think that for me as for a lot of people then I would prefer my meat and veg etc to be organic and healthy and where applicable happy (I'm sorry but I can't get all upset over the thought of unhappy sprouts... It's just not pulling at the old heart strings ) I am gradually moving over to buying most of my meat from my local butchers which although cannot gurantee the meat is organic then does at least only stock locally produced meat and none of it is "factory farmed" and can if you really want to get aquainted with your dinner - tell you it's name (well in most cases it's a number but hey 1846 seems like a cute name to me!)as well as what farm it came from, it's date of birth etc. It's a little more expensive on some things I have found but the quality is SO much better and there is no end of help and advice and I could actually walk there if I wanted (I usually stop by on my way home from work).

Veg is mainly now from the organic box scheme as is our fruit. We vary our diet more as I am trying to get the hang of what to do with it all :rotfl: and less is wasted, but I know not all is grown in the UK although they try to get as much as possible from local producers.

An ideal world would include an allotment in our village where I could grow my own and maybe even have a couple of hens for eggs and the occasional roast. But for now this is the best I can do without frankly being taken for a ride on price I'll buy fairtrade where I can and when it is not extortionate, but only if it I think what I am buying is worth the price I am being asked to pay.