Can OS be ethical?

Chipps

joebloggs69 wrote:

my parents would buy everything at a supermarket so I've never been to a butchers or fishmongers - I dont even know what to ask for! Is it alot more expensive?

Most decent butchers (or presumably also fishmongers, but I have never tried) will be only to pleased to help and explain what you want. Just make sure you speak to a butcher, not one of the young Saturday staff or whatever. Butchers are interested in selling their meat, & getting good customers, so they will usually be pretty helpful when it comes to explaining what type of meat and how to cook it etc. The hardest thing to overcome imho, is the fear of asking for help in front of all the old ladies in the queue, cos you feel embarrassed at displaying ignorance (I tried to wait until there weren't too many people in the shop!)
As to cost, our local butchers is cheaper than the supermarket. Also, we will sometimes go to a local slaughterhouse, which has its own shop (don't worry, you can't see the "working" side of the business from there!) and that sells local high quality meat at very reasonable prices. The butchers there are very helpful, and will cut meat up, tell you how to cook it, and give lots of advice & help.

Loadsabob

Thank you Joe for this thread - it's a very timely one for my boyfriend and I. We live separately but are currently battling with some of the questions raised here.

We have both always been very ethically minded, and in recent years, on a reasonable salary, that has become my priority when shopping. My salary is not bad at the moment, and I'm lucky enough to be able to afford to support local, organic and fairtrade items and smaller local shops. BUT, it can be pricey.

There are some things for me that are non-negotiable. I have bought only free range eggs for nearly 20 years now (these days I buy organic ones, too). I don't even look at the cost of battery eggs as I wouldn't give them houseroom. And teabags will always be fairtrade for me. For good quality tea, I doubt I'd save much by not buying fairtrade anyway (I don't use coffee).

Other things I do:

1. Have a local organic box delivered - £7.50 a fortnight, I plan meals around what they deliver (usually includes their eggs)
2. Refuse carrier bags and always take my own shopping bags with me.
3. Use the local healthfood shop where possible.
4. Only use Ecover or homemade cleaning products.
5. Only use chemical free bodycare.
6. Buy products with as little packaging as possible.
7. Carefully limit my food miles, buying seasonally much of the time.
8. Never buy Nestle or Coca Cola and related companies (loads more boycots I should engage with, too)

The chemical free bodycare is expensive, but the shampoo I bought for £5.99 looks set to last a whole year (washing my hair every day). I also don't use much in the way of "beauty" products anyway, and I just use organis rosewater and rosehip oil for my face, which is pretty inexpensive actually.

Anyway, the things we're battling with are individual purchases. My boyfriend is currently living on DLA, trying desperately to move off it, and he's been paying back students credit card and overdraft at the same time. He's fantastic with money, lives so carefully, but is ethical too. Now he's feeling terrible at moving from Organic Clipper decaf coffee to Tesco organic coffee because it's not fairtrade. But their fairtrade coffee (in our branch) isn't decaf. He also spends a lot on salad, either from Tesco organic or (where possible) from the local healthfood shop. He's struggling with the comparison between 49p non-organic celery in Tesco, and £1.98 local organic in the healthfood shop.

Things like that are difficult when you try and live ethically, and cheaply. He's wanting to clear his debts (and they're quite small, but not slow to clear when you're living on benefits), and wonders whether it's okay to be less ethical while he does that? I'm thinking, yes, it is fair enough to look after himself a bit more than all the other causes, for a short time, as the bulk of his lifestyle looks to be ethical as far as possible.

Me, I've made a couple of moneysaving decisions over the last couple of weeks' shopping. because my food bill has gone up and up in recent months.

SO - instead of my usual Nouvelle toilet tissue at £1.66 for four (bought because its recycled), I've bought Tesco luxury because it's on offer for £1 for four rolls. And anyway, should I be buying Nouvelle because its recycled, or Andrex wrapped in paper because there's no plastic packaging??? It's a mine field!! I also bought Tesco tinned toms on BOGOF, at half the price of the organic ones I usually buy. And Tesco white bread flour instead of the Doves organic white bread flour - 51p instead of £1.19. These things make a difference, and I think I'm going to have to make some cost-cutting decisions like this. But I do find it hard to compromise my principles to save money...even though sometimes I'm sure I could justify it.

Anyway, great to hear that there are lots of us battling with these issues (in that it makes me feel less lonely with it!). I think it's very OS to think carefully about what you consume, and it's nice to have some support here!

joebloggs69

I have also faced this issue with regard to charity, and drawn the same conclusion. I give £10 a month to charity and for some reason it's much easier to come to the conclusion that if you are gonna be really strapped for cash for a while then you should cancel the standing order and just resume it when you are back on your feet. I see no difference with living ethically, I think it's just a harder decision because you can't see the numbers as clearly.

While I'm in a philosophical mood I'll share a little drivel with you! I like to use the metaphor of health and fitness: giving to charity is the same as dieting and trying to lose weight - not a bad goal but useless if you don't eat healthily; you're just cancelling out your own actions. And eating healthily is the equivolent of shopping ethically: only when you combine to two will you have a 'healthy lifestyle'.

I suppose, as ever, the key word here is sustainabilty - it applies to so much: environment, personal finances, and even lifestyle. And I reckon that giving away money when you genuinely can't afford it is not a sustainable lifestyle.

£Ronnie

You have hit the nail on the head really Loadsabob, how do you decide which is more important?

Our Income varies and in the past 6 months we have really reduced outgoings and thrown all spare at debt. Debt free since last week, we are now re-thinking about how to manage our money sensibly whilst having some degree of enjoyment in life. (There has been no room for treats lately)

After bills, my DH's immediate priorities are beer money and all that goes with it, taxis, ciggies, takeaways etc.:rolleyes: Mine on the other hand would be to get some clothes that are not soooo faded, bobbly, and try to look less like a pauper, but at the prices I am prepared to pay for and can afford, i am sure that the clothes cant be ethical.

However this month (variable income, never huge amount:sad: )we have taken in just enough to cover bills and tescos value shopping. How can we even begin to be ethical in our lifestyle when we are talking about price differences that you have detailed in your post??

This is before we have even thought about other things that should be in our budget such as Christmas/Birthday fund, pension, rainy day, let alone the nice things such as clothes, haircuts, holidays, days out, or the dreaded beer money?

On a larger scale, I can't see how as a nation we can choose to be more ethical in our lifestyles when we both work reasonable jobs, are not into brand name anything, have no social life that involves £, and do no "keeping up with the Jones". Yet we would be seen by those on benefits as comfortable because we have a mortgage and a car(11 years old). How could someone in the benefits system manage if they had a desire to live ethically?

I know that having principles often means making sacrifices in other areas but I cant see any that can be made in our budget. (Tempted now to do a SOA on DFW board!)

Just feel really confused as to how to start the ball rolling in our house on this without having a negative affect somewhere....

joebloggs69

Incidently Loadsabob, what company deliver organic stuff for £7.50 a fortnight?

£Ronnie

Cross posted Joe Bloggs, yes that makes sense but couldnt we all shrug off the responsibility with the excuse that we cant afford it, when it is said that you will live to your means?

Where is the line/ balance?

£Ronnie

Have just found a site that seems to cover many aspects, food etc for those that are interested.http://www.livingethically.co.uk/index.htm

Loadsabob

joebloggs69 wrote:

Incidently Loadsabob, what company deliver organic stuff for £7.50 a fortnight?

Hi Joe - I use Cusgarne Organic Farm in Truro - about 13 miles from where I live. The £7.50 is the basic box of veg and eggs, which you can receive weekly or fortnightly. There's a good thread about organic boxes in OS somewhere (possibly more than one!), which compares prices and areas, and what you get for your money.

joebloggs69

£Ronnie I think that, as you have said, you're not part of the 'must-have-bigger-TV-even-though-mines-fine' crowd, and that's the most important first step (whether you chose it or not!). As a student I'm just staying afloat too, with Martins help, and I budgeted for a long time before I was able to give the £10 a month to charity. It is only recently, with moving in with my girlfriend, that these issues have become even more pressing - and it looks like I might have to scrap my current budget and start afresh. I suppose the important thing is trying to buy the more ethical option when you can - the aim is to try and encourage these companies to produce more of this kind of product or service - create a demand for it. We are pretty much at their mercy so I think it is perfectly right to say that youcan't afford to live ethically, so long as it is a long term goal.

Eels100

joebloggs69 wrote:

I would ideally like to buy organic meat and fish as this sort of kills 3 birds with one stone (if you’ll pardon the unethical expression!): it’s healthier for me, it’s more likely to be local, and the animals have a better life.

Joe, I haven't time to read any replies you've had, but I wanted to point out that an 'Organic' label on a product doesn't mean the animals have improved welfare. In fact, it can sometimes mean the opposite, as farmers are not allowed to treat animals until they are actually ill.

For example, an organic farmer has twenty calves, and one of them develops pneumonia - he can call in the vet and treat it, and it will get better, but the nineteen other calves are extremely likely to catch the disease from their friend. On a normal farm they could be treated to prevent them becoming ill, but in an organic sitruation, you guessed it, the poor calves have to wait until they're sick too before they can be treated.

Another example, a farmer has a flock of sheep which are not thriving, and he wants to supplement them with minerals, so he gets the vet to take blood samples to prove to his Organic Authority that he needs to treat them. But although several of the samples confirm the farmer's suspicions, the farmer isn't allowed to treat them because not enough of the sheep tested positive for the problem. So they can't be treated, and the sheep have to struggle on as they are.

These are very, very simplified examples but personally I make a point of NOT buying organic food. An organic cabbage may have marginally less pesticide on it that an average one, but chances are the average cabbage is happier!