Purebred breeder T&Cs

Londonwriter

What is the standard situation with contracts, refunds, etc. and pure bred dog breeders?

We were looking at buying a puppy and I contacted two reputable breeder of designer crossbreeds to ask about waiting lists, their dogs, etc. Both breeders cross bred purebred dogs, claimed to do health checks, etc.

Both told me that we couldn't:

1. Visit the parent dogs before putting down a deposit ('it stresses the dog'), even if the female was not yet pregnant;
2. See the father because he belonged to someone else;
3. See scanned copies of the health certificates or pedigree certificates before putting down a deposit;
4. Return the puppy after purchase unless I'd made 'every conceivable effort to train it' because they'd 'never had a problem' with their dogs.

The deposit was several £100s and the two breeders I spoke to both said the same thing. They both got very bad tempered when I asked legal questions. They claimed my concerns stemmed from "a lack of knowledge of the breed" and therefore they weren't prepared to offer me a puppy until "I did more research".

I know pedigree dogs are inbred, but they're not clones. I can meet 400 of the same breed and it doesn't mean I am prepared to give someone several £100 before I meet either parent. This is especially the case with designer crossbreeds, which vary consistently (from inbred parents) but which aren't carbon copies of one another.

I also wouldn't like to be in a position where a breeder got stroppy if a puppy had serious behavioural problems, poor thing, and despite lots of effort we couldn't cope!

I don't know whether this is standard among breeders. It just feels to me like they view the dogs as a consumer good - interchangeable and any faults are buyer error - rather than an animal with a personality.

I am now looking at rescue dogs because at least I meet the dog I'm planning to adopt and see how we get on before I hand any money over.

Am I being unreasonable and this standard practice among pure bred dog breeders? Did I just offend breeders by asking clueless questions? Are designer crossbreeds really so consistent that the breeder can guarantee no problems with a puppy? (it's a living creature - I doubt it) Or did I just ring two 'lemons' and I should look for a better breeder? Might it be because I was looking at designer crossbreeds and all breeders of these dogs are out to make a quick buck? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

myothercarisaferrari

why on earth are you paying hundreds of pounds for a crossbreed? there is no such thing as a 'designer' crossbreed? Are you going to dress it up and paint its nails?

Get down to your local dog rescue, pay them the donation where it will go neutering, feeding, vaccinated and general care of dogs that have been handed in. There are thousands of crossbreeds looknig for a new home.

Sorry but if you had over hundreds of pounds for something called a designer crossbreed, you;re a muppet

elsien

I've never bought a dog from a breeder, so can't help with what the usual practice is, but I'm surprised that meeting the parents was a no-no, and also that returning a puppy was such an issue.
(Unless they've had a run of half-baked owners who have got fed up of the pups and dumped them back again, which seems unlikely with two breeders.)
Where did you get the details from - I'm curious as to how you know they are reputable? From my limited knowledge I'd be a bit wary from what you've said.

I'd second the going with a rescue dog - so many dogs looking for homes, (including pure breds) that I couldn't justify paying out the sort of money that breeders want. That's just my opinion anyway.
What sort of dog do you want? - there are people here involved with animal rescue who might be able to point you in the right direction from a rehoming centre.

foreign_correspondent

I have no idea whether the breeders you phoned are kosher, but know that a lot of not so good breeders have jumped on the so-called 'designer dogs' bandwagon.

I agree with your decision to look at rescue dogs - I have a designer crossbreed (ok, really she is a random and unique mongel!) who is a rescue, and she is smashing -look for a good rescue, that will let you meet the dog several times if need be, take it for a walk, they should know its temprement and needs well, will do a homecheck, and should have it written into their contract that if at any time, you cannot keep the dog, it goes back to them.

The rescue I got my dog from also offers free input from a dog behaviouralist if you have any training problems, and are always there if you need any advice! A good rescue will also make sure dogs are neutered, chipped and vacinated before they are homed. (If you need to return a rescue dog, you do not get your rehoming fee back, but my dog 'cost' a £95 donation - the cost of me to get her speyed, chipped and vcced would have been twice that, so I think she was a bargain!)

KellyWelly

This isn't standard, this is a breeder who has something to hide.

You should be able to view the parents (at least the dam) and it is quite likely that the sire would belong to somebody else but people who care about the dogs and puppies they are breeding would let you view the sire as well. I feel it is vital to see the dam at least because she is the one who will pass on a lot of the puppy's temperament.

As for not showing you the health certificates and pedigrees - why on earth not? The whole point of the health certificates is to prove to others that the dogs are healthy and I see no reason not to show the pedigree certificates either. Maybe they aren't 'as advertised?'

Regarding returning puppies - this should be a standard clause in any contract imho. They obviously don't care a hoot about the puppies once they've had the money.

I would personally steer well clear of both those breeders. imho I would jump on you as a potential owner for a puppy I'd bred, you sound like you really care and are thinking it through - I had a litter of puppies a couple of years ago and the people I had phoning for them blatantly did not give a monkeys about the puppies and they were paying good money for the dog, I turned down at least 25 - 30 people trying to buy one of only 3 puppies.

foreign_correspondent

Both told me that we couldn't:

1. Visit the parent dogs before putting down a deposit ('it stresses the dog'), even if the female was not yet pregnant;
2. See the father because he belonged to someone else;
3. See scanned copies of the health certificates or pedigree certificates before putting down a deposit;
4. Return the puppy after purchase unless I'd made 'every conceivable effort to train it' because they'd 'never had a problem' with their dogs.

hmm - well, on re-reading I can sort of understand they may have a problem with people just changing their minds after buying a pup impulsively...

however as for the other three - that sounds ridiculous and very suspect - buyer beware, there are lots of scammers and lots of puppy farmers out there!

You may be interested in the thread mrcol posted yesterday too: http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1859725

How is the dog stressed by being seen? - my dog just lurrves visitors!

I did see a video where a chap was breeding pups in horrible conditions, he got the pups out and let people look at them, then said they had to buy them cos if he put them back in the mother would kill them - that was a load of crap, and just a ploy to pressure people to buy...

lostinrates

Londonwriter wrote: »

..... Are designer crossbreeds really so consistent that the breeder can guarantee no problems with a puppy? .....

No they are not. Even very well bred dogs, with well researcched lines can throw the odd surprise within a breed, with cross breeds even more so, because for each characteristic described by the parents genes for each characteristic that makes up the pup is different. So height, coat qaulity, personality can lean one way or another and one pup in the litter can be very different to the next one.

A good breeder will let you meet the mother and see the pups after a few weeks, and having got to know the pups and seen you with them hould help guide you as to the puppy choice from the litter. Even with purebreeds each animal is individual and might be more suited to one potential buyer thn another.

I would also echo the ask of why a designer crossbreed? What are you looking for that cannot be found in either in a ''common or garden'' crossbreed or a hugely diverse range of breeds?

looby-loo_2

My friend just bought a puppy with so many conditions she is worried to death she wont cope, all of them seem to be opposite to the OPs experience.

She had to visit the puppy every week so it got to know her, feed a certain food at a certain time, ring with report on how it's doing, follow an exercise and grooming routine and the breeder also reserved the right to visit until the pup is 1 year old and could take it back (giving her a full refund) if she finds anything she doesn't like, etc, etc...... 5 pages of contract altogether.

I hasten to add all the conditions in the end are for the good of the dog. The OPs breeder seem to have a very strange attitude and I would go elsewhere.

Londonwriter

I'm not jumping on a 'designer' bandwagon. We are really keen hikers, but our new house will be quite small with a little yard. So we were looking for active dogs that I could walk for two hours a day minimum while being happy living in a smallish space the rest of the time. I'm a freelance - I work from home most of the time so really enjoy getting out of the house. There are dog sitters/walkers nearby the couple of days a month I don't.

We hope to welcome a baby in two or three years time so were looking for a gentle, family-orientated dog.

A vet friend recommended we looked at Cocker Spaniel and lab/poodle crosses because she said they were healthier than straight spaniels, but were energetic, friendly dogs that would meet our needs. We figured we were happy to pay £100s because we would pay a lot on the dog over its lifetime.

It sounds like asking for a non-refundable deposit of £100s of pounds before meeting the parents or seeing copies of certificates is dodgy. Both breeders got really bad tempered when I asked about the deposit and the T&Cs they used. It was especially weird given I was only making preliminary enquiries.

We are actually pretty flexible about breed. I'm happy to consider Cocker spaniel crosses, lab/poodle crosses, non-crazy Cocker spaniels, and Collie crosses if they don't have the herding instinct (I love Border Collies). Anything healthy, energetic, gentle, small or medium-sized and good with kids.

We're not experienced dog owners and are worried about dogs having huge health problems (especially after seeing the BBC Documentary on purebreds and reading about puppy farms) so were initially put off rescue dogs and purebreds. This is particularly the case since most of the rescue dogs shown on the internet are large, guard dogs (I appreciate these will be the 'hard cases' who aren't rehomed the day they arrive).

foreign_correspondent

lostinrates wrote: »

No they are not. Even very well bred dogs, with well researcched lines can throw the odd surprise within a breed, with cross breeds even more so, because for each characteristic described by the parents genes for each characteristic that makes up the pup is different. So height, coat qaulity, personality can lean one way or another and one pup in the litter can be very different to the next one.

I would also echo the ask of why a designer crossbreed? What are you looking for that cannot be found in either in a ''common or garden'' crossbreed or a hugely diverse range of breeds?

absolutely - if you are not looking for a pedigree, but a crossbreed, there are thousands of smashing, individual and unique crossbreeds in rescues, who desperately need homes - why any breeder would think it responsible to churn out yet more crossbreeds is beyond me! (there are also plenty of pedigrees in rescue too, but the majority tend to be crosses) - and yes, the genetics, displosition and looks of a littler of 'designer' crossbreed pups can vary - some may look like mum, some like dad, and some like neither!

foreign_correspondent

Londonwriter wrote: »

I'm not jumping on a 'designer' bandwagon. We are really keen hikers, but our new house will be quite small with a little yard. So we were looking for active dogs that I could walk for two hours a day minimum while being happy living in a smallish space the rest of the time.

We hope to welcome a baby in two or three years time so were looking for a gentle, family-orientated dog.

A vet friend recommended we looked at Cocker Spaniel and lab/poodle crosses because she said they were healthier than straight spaniels, but were energetic, friendly dogs that would meet our needs.

It sounds like asking for a non-refundable deposit of £100s of pounds before meeting the parents or seeing copies of certificates is dodgy. Both breeders got really bad tempered when I asked about this. It was especially weird given I was only making preliminary enquiries, e.g. asking if I could visit at some point after we move house.

We are actually pretty flexible about breed. I'm happy to consider Cocker spaniel crosses, lab/poodle crosses, non-crazy straight Cocker spaniels, and Collie crosses if they don't have the herding instinct (I love Border Collies). Anything healthy, energetic, gentle, small or medium-sized and good with kids.

from your first paragraph, I though - sighthound!! A greyhound is bigger than you are looking for, (but the ideal temprement) but a whippet or whippety x breed may well be ideal... or a stafie x, or just a random dog, crossbreed or pedigree, with the right temprement

lab x poodle tend to be big, and can be bonkers, you wont know if a collie x is a herder till is matures, likewise with a cocker or x, you wont know if it is crazy till it matures...

of course, one way round this is to get a dog which is already mature so you know its temprement instead of hoping for the best with a pup... have a look at www.dogsblog.com to see if there are any suitable dogs in rescue - loads of lovely dogs (though this is not an exhaustive list as planty of rescues do not post on there) and you can select by breed, size, age or by tags like 'good with cats' etc