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NASA_2

Claire_DC wrote: »

I agree on that... a debate is always good, and apologies again for getting posters/posts mixed up.

I didn't imply any malice was in your post hun - the malice I thought was in the post about scrapping bus passes completely as that person had no use for them and thus did not care, and getting on 3 stops earlier to get a seat instead of an elderly person getting it - which now seems it was not your post).

What's wrong with making sure I get a seat ahead of someone that doesnt pay?

spikeysoul

lisaj wrote: »

People don't understand that ESA is not a benefit in the sense all previous benefits have been. It is a conditional benefit and involves 'conditionality'. I watched all the Grand Committees and listened to all the discussions and eventually you realise quite how fundamental this change is. At one point some Tory Lords turned up from the Constitutional Committee and said that a DWP officer or a private contractor taking away benefits from people without any sort of court being involved is unconstitutional and against Human Rights. CarerWatch is consulting with Liberty about this at the moment and we'll post about it on CW camapign blog if we get any where.

The Minister keeps saying that ESA is not a right - it is something you get in return for 'moving nearer to the workplace'. And whether you are complying and trying hard enough is judged by this advisor. If you 'agree' a program of activity then they see this as a contract and they can sanction you for not doing it. This is where we think people with severe mental illness might be confused and agree to do things under pressure that aren't realistic.

Lots of Lords make the point that this makes the advisor who is trying to help you get back in to work both a friend and a policeman. The particular issues around mental health and paranoia and pressure and threats as they are perceived by people with severe mental illness are a big concern.

But to answer the question put above - I think it is great if all sick and disabled people can be helped to get back to work. CW is not arguing against any of the back to work help and initiatives. It's the pressure and sanctions designed for the workshy that we don't like.

But if any disabled person wants total equality and parity and to be put under the same pressure and coercion to get a job as a fit person then I can understand that.

My concern is mainly with people with severe mental health issues where courts normally take a more sympathetic position. It is sometimes hard with a mental illness to follow instructions and to stand up for yourself and explain how things are for you. We have consulted with service users on mental health sites and none of them want to be out under direction and pressure. That is why we ae campaignign for protection for them. But other disablilities must speak for themselves.

If the idea of having pressure put on you to get a job is OK with you - then ESA will be fine for you. But don't sleep walk in to it and then find that the pressure is not helpful. I should be very interested in how people feel about this.

Professor Gregg designed a support group for people with severe conditions and the government is putting hardly any one in it. This is what we think is wrong. The support group is a place where people could have all the help they wanted back to work but no threats and sanctions and that is where we are arguing that people with schizophrenia and bi polar should go. I would have guessed that people with other severe conditions might want their disability charities to wake up and make the same argument for this protection for them. But I may be wrong. Pehaps with a physical disability being pressured like this is helpful. I wouldn't think anxiety was helpful with most disabilities but I don't know.

We would be prepared at CarerWatch to extend our campaign for protection to other disability groups if people wanted it. Anyone can join our board and join the campaign. There isn't much time because this all gets decided in October.

How would that work each disability separatly wading in - there are a lot of specific PH conditions that would be adversly effected by these changes. Anyone suffereing from cronic fatigue and cronic pain really. Most of us have to pace our lives very carefully - if not we get worse. There arn't really any single bodies that I know of that campaign and help us - just lots of little ones. There is a big difference in ability and culture between those disabled by barriers in the outside world (how I would count my dyslexia) and the barries our own bodies throw at us (my HMS).

Just like those with severe MH problems we are an easy and vunerable target - not because we don't want to 'stand up' and be counted and lobby, but because we are in too much pain, too exhausted and also because these conditons usually result iin what is lovingly known as brain fog. On a bad brain fog day I could very possibly agree to anything just to shut someone up so I could get home to sleep or just not have to think.. I don't take in and can't process information - how could people make valid decisions under those circumstances?

You can't just set up a list of PH conditions that need to go in the support group - it would be huge and the conditions vary so much. You could make a provision for pain and fatigue - but I don't see that happening as it's too subjective and they would cry 'scroungers' 'work shy liars'. So yes we need protection as well - i just don't see it happening, I get the feeling the chronically sick are the ones they are trying to target anyway - we are the ones who will be too tired and ill to do anything about it and there is no one group ready to stand up for us. Easy really.

I fear conditonality could put me into the state i was in when I fiinished working - I've got better becasue I don't work, do I have no entitlement to quality of life and competancy at work (can't competantly work in the state I was in). I do want to work but pushing me is only going to result in a relapse (I'm getting close too, I'm really hopeful in one or two years I might just manage to push to the magic 16 hours) - there are 1000's like me out there and I hope to goodness those with severe MH get protected - I had two family members with Bi-Polar and it is awful. I've already lost one to it, I don't want to loose the second. In that respect it is more important that they get protection - it won't actually literally kill me to be sanctioned, it will kill those with severe MH difficulties.

alwaysonthego_2

Is it just me but can anyone be bothered to read Lisa's posts, they are way too long!

Claire_DC

NASA wrote: »

The reason I am waiting and not doing anything now is for one of the reasons you state - family - they wont have to deal with anything whether that be emotional or financial.

It will surely be a long long time before you are without any family whatsoever? Wouldn't you rather spend that time trying to get better, rather than planning something that I have learned is not the way out.

A year on means tested benefits is worth £3343.60 (At the minute) - I am certain that I can carry out my plan and cost less than that. I have savings/investments that will cover costs anyway and I will make provisions in my will for costs to be covered or if that isnt possible I will just make lump sums available to the authorites affected.

I find this all very matter of fact, and to be honest a bit unnerving... however you haven't addressed the fact that anybody finding you could end up incapable of work for many numbers of years, or ever again in their life... you just don't know that. What about if your attempt fails, but you're left needing round the clock care? That would cost more in services and benefits than you could begin to imagine. If your workings are on a financial scale then I think you should definitely rethink things as you can never know the true outcome of what will happen when you're not around/with it to explain matters.

What is to say I wont feel this way 'when the time comes'?

While anything is possible I've felt this way for more than half my life, my first attempt coming before I was a teenager, so I tend to think it will never go away.

It won't if you have the attitude that this is how things are going to be... you don't even seem open to change or making things better. I have been there, and I still have very severe depression, and I can tell you now that after seeing what happened when my cousin hung herself that I would never, ever do that... no matter how tough things are. It's hard work to live day in and dayout, still getting *thoughts* but I promise you that it's an achievement to not give into them. Please please get some help, get yourself better and live a life. x

Claire_DC

NASA wrote: »

What's wrong with making sure I get a seat ahead of someone that doesnt pay?

Because it is unbelievably selfish in my opinion. The only people who get a free bus pass are generally severely mentally disabled, physically disabled or old (and frail) and are thus unable to safely maike sure they remain standing for the whole journey... whilst you, who seems to be able bodied etc would sit there, and make sure they got a seat by going on 3 stops earlier and then let the person who NEEDED a seat suffer by standing, and risk injuring themselves.

I don't see how you don't see that yourself.

Claire_DC

alwaysonthego wrote: »

Is it just me but can anyone be bothered to read Lisa's posts, they are way too long!

I read them.

NASA_2

Claire_DC wrote: »

It will surely be a long long time before you are without any family whatsoever? Wouldn't you rather spend that time trying to get better, rather than planning something that I have learned is not the way out.



I find this all very matter of fact, and to be honest a bit unnerving... however you haven't addressed the fact that anybody finding you could end up incapable of work for many numbers of years, or ever again in their life... you just don't know that. What about if your attempt fails, but you're left needing round the clock care? That would cost more in services and benefits than you could begin to imagine. If your workings are on a financial scale then I think you should definitely rethink things as you can never know the true outcome of what will happen when you're not around/with it to explain matters.



It won't if you have the attitude that this is how things are going to be... you don't even seem open to change or making things better. I have been there, and I still have very severe depression, and I can tell you now that after seeing what happened when my cousin hung herself that I would never, ever do that... no matter how tough things are. It's hard work to live day in and dayout, still getting *thoughts* but I promise you that it's an achievement to not give into them. Please please get some help, get yourself better and live a life. x

I'm not overly concerned with how my extended family deal with anything I do in the future. They live in different countries than I do so its not like they are on my doorstep or anything. Maybe they will shed a tear but I doubt somehow that they would be left traumatised.

I dont intend to fail again so needing round the clock care isnt something I am factoring in to my costings. The person or people who find me will be trained preofessionals and while I am sure they dont like walking in on such a scenario I doubt that what I plan to do and how I plan to do it will leave them traumatised either.

I dont see that I can seek any more help than I already have. Its not changed anything.

Claire_DC

Well it's not like I can force you but I would have thought that the reason things haven't worked so far is because you have your mind made up it seems, and for psychology/psychiatric treatment to work, you really need to be receptive to/want to get things better. I would also think that if you didn't give up on things and kept on trying that maybe you might have a breakthrough.

Whilst professionals may have seen it before etc, I'm sure it's not nice for them to witness all the same, and then have to go home and see their family and possibly be snappy or whatever with them. Also, you don't know that your case won't be the straw that breaiks the camels back with that person... things get to people, even just over a period of time when they think they're used to it all.

You can never be 100% sure that it will work either, especially if found by a medical person who has seen it all before as they may take matters out of your hands and save your life, but maybe not your ability to look after yourself or do it again.

As I said, nothing is 100% set in stone. x

NASA_2

Claire_DC wrote: »

Because it is unbelievably selfish in my opinion. The only people who get a free bus pass are generally severely mentally disabled, physically disabled or old (and frail) and are thus unable to safely maike sure they remain standing for the whole journey... whilst you, who seems to be able bodied etc would sit there, and make sure they got a seat by going on 3 stops earlier and then let the person who NEEDED a seat suffer by standing, and risk injuring themselves.

I don't see how you don't see that yourself.

The people I now get a seat ahead of are not frail, not mentally or physically handicapped. They are day trippers going to another city to do a bit of shopping. My conscience is totally clear.

NASA_2

Claire_DC wrote: »

Well it's not like I can force you but I would have thought that the reason things haven't worked so far is because you have your mind made up it seems, and for psychology/psychiatric treatment to work, you really need to be receptive to/want to get things better. I would also think that if you didn't give up on things and kept on trying that maybe you might have a breakthrough.

Whilst professionals may have seen it before etc, I'm sure it's not nice for them to witness all the same, and then have to go home and see their family and possibly be snappy or whatever with them. Also, you don't know that your case won't be the straw that breaiks the camels back with that person... things get to people, even just over a period of time when they think they're used to it all.

You can never be 100% sure that it will work either, especially if found by a medical person who has seen it all before as they may take matters out of your hands and save your life, but maybe not your ability to look after yourself or do it again.

As I said, nothing is 100% set in stone. x

I do regularly meet with a health professional so its not like I havent attempted to sort myself out. Of course things are not 100% set in stone but as things currently stand I'll go ahead with the plan.

Like I said before, I'm not planning to fail, and its very unlikely that a medical person will break into my abode on the off chance that someone 'needs' their help.

As for being the straw that breaks the camels back - if they are heading there anyway then I'm not going to blame myself for that. If its not me then it will be someone else.

Anyway, its not like this is going to happen tomorrow, could be ten or twenty years. No point in discussing it really. This thread can resume what it was meant to be about.