Railcard woes - family asked to leave train

advent1122

yenbat wrote: »

I pity any harrassed mother or father travelling with children this summer, who mislays their card and then is faced with a massive train fare just to get to their holiday destination with no railcard to validate return tickets. If they cannot pay, what then ?

Same if you mislay your credit card, driving licence, debit card, wallet, car keys, money... etc - You experience inconvenience for not being careful.

Ste_C

yenbat wrote: »

3. I entirely accept that I should have carried this railcard on the day of travel - my point which is not being discussed is the risk of losing this card mid journey and the vulnerable position this puts the traveller in. This could happen to anyone. Should they then be treated the same as a fare avoider who has no tickets at all - at least if you lose your card you have tickets already purchased and should not risk prosecution just because your card was mislaid or stolen. The treatment is inflexible and completely disproportionate to the situation.

The risk of losing your card is minimal. As I and others have already said, thousands of people use railcards without any problems. If you lose something, you're always inconvenienced.

You really need to get over this and stop being such a victim. Write it off and forget about it.

The only thing disproportionate is your whining and failure to see that the rail company did nothing wrong.

custardy

yenbat wrote: »

Thankyou for that excellent suggestion - it's good enough for the police who give you several days to produce your driving license I believe ! I could have produced proof at the desination station by accessing the railcard website with my password or even on my mobile.

It appears that it's ok to buy a discounted ticket without a railcard and that you are presumed guilty of fare evasion unless you can prove otherwise. What proof of identity is required when you produce the railcard other than waving it in front of the guard ? Could someone steal the card then use it - what safeguards are there ? It all seems back to front to me. I don't seem to have been sent any of the items listed such as red wallets or information leaflets - it was just a card.

I will stick to the car in future - it seems a lot simpler !

surely that just proves somebody gave you log in details?

daveboy

£104........a tax on an idiot. Who then has the nerve to moan about it.

Well done train company.

shadamehr

yenbat wrote: »

Thank you shadamehr for the time taken in contributing to this discussion - I was not intending to contribute any more but feel that your efforts deserve a response !

1. Please note the terms and conditions from the Family Railcard website :

Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train and when buying tickets you must show the Railcard.

Being in posession of a railcard is as much a condition of travel at the point of buying tickets as for the actual journey. I bought my railcard, bought my tickets as soon as it arrived then waited 2 months to travel - I assumed that is what you have to do to qualify for a discount. I notice that the date of purchase is printed on my tickets so it can be traced by linking the date on the railcard which any guard could do at the point of inspection. These tickets would not have been valid without purchasing the railcard first.

Yes. I am fully aware of this, and always have been, but I appreciate you pinting it out. Nevertheless, this is the most 'least adhered to' aspect of the regulations, by people owning, or intending to own a Railcard.

Whilst my action may amount to a breach of T&C's to the letter of the law, they sure as heck won't amount to one that can ever be easily proven, as when I am challenged for my Railcard when travelling in late September, I WILL have it with me.

Which leads nicely on to the second part of what you say on this point. Having the date of purchase printed on a ticket, will have ZERO bearing on anything, in terms of not matching up with the date of issue of what would then be my EXISTING Railcard, as this does nothing to disprove I did not own a PREVIOUS Railcard that WAS valid at the time the tickets were purchased.

And nothing exists within the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, or Conditions of Railcard Issue, to require a user to carry any prior, already expired, Railcards with them to correspond to a prior date advance tickets were actually purchased.

Please mate, think this through as you go, and look for flaws yourself, and you will see the shortcomings.

I appreciate what you say about the Railcard Terms and Conditions, but was VERY minded to actually mention in my original post that "to the letter of the regulations, it IS actually a requirement to have a Valid Railcard in force AT THE TIME OR POINT TICKETS ARE ACTUALLY PURCHASED, EVEN IF FOR ADVANCE TRAVEL", but thought my post was already sufficiently lengthy by then, so omitted it.

But yes, I am aware it is technically a requirement, exactly as much as I am aware it is an impossible point for the authorities to prove, even with a date of issue printed on my ticket, as there is no way to disprove I did not have a previously valid Railcard, since disposed of due to expiry, at the time the tickets were ordered.

I hope that clarifies both points.

yenbat wrote:

2. My second railcard, purchased after leaving the train, and new tickets were never inspected and the entire return journey was not subject to any inspection so where is the safeguard ?

There is none. Any more so than an even simpler and more regular situation, not even involving Railcards, where on many journeys, NORMAL tickets are not even examined or inspected, due to the Train Manager being too busy to reach a certain carriage, person etc etc.

The ENTIRE ethos of train travel, and train ticketing, apart from those barriered stations now being re-introduced such as my own, is that you are expected to carry valid tickets IN CASE you are called upon to show them and have them examined.

Never mind a Railcard mate, you could even get on a train with NO tickets, IF you felt sufficiently confident, or lucky, that you would not get asked to show them.

There are a number of occasions I can recall, where I have not been required to show tickets, perhaps due to the Guard not being able to reach me in time, before my alighting etc.

There are millions more occasions however, to a ratio of 98% to 2%, that I HAVE been required to show them.

So talking about "where are the safeguards" in terms of being required to show a Railcard, is churlish, when one considers not even all NORMAL tickets can always be inspected in every case, and on every journey.

This does not remove your requirement to carry them in any way, nor does it stop you chancing your luck, if you feel confident you could manage a journey without being asked.

So I am entirely unsure why you even raise that point, unless other than to point out the understandable irony of being done for not having your Railcard, and then after paying a fortune for a replacement card and tickets, then not even being asked to show them, on that journey. Yup - I concur, s*d's law indeed, you could have put money on it. But bet your bottom dollar you'd have been asked, had you NOT replaced them etc.

I think they call that "Life". But for SURE, I sympathise with you on that point mate, which is why I think you chose to share the point with us - simply to convey the irony. I trust nothing more than that though, as there is no other real reason for mentioning this, because as I say, being asked to show tickets, cannot be certain in EVERY case, and on every journey. This has always been thus mate, not just with Railcards, but ANY ticket, for ANY traveller.

yenbat wrote:

3. I entirely accept that I should have carried this railcard on the day of travel - my point which is not being discussed is the risk of losing this card mid journey and the vulnerable position this puts the traveller in. This could happen to anyone. Should they then be treated the same as a fare avoider who has no tickets at all - at least if you lose your card you have tickets already purchased and should not risk prosecution just because your card was mislaid or stolen. The treatment is inflexible and completely disproportionate to the situation.

If I travel by car and I break down and call the AA, then cannot find my membership card when they arrive, are they going to leave me at the roadside ? They will consult their records by surname, date and address just as the train company could to validate that I have a card. They would not just charge me for the callout as a penalty for being forgetful.

I pity any harrassed mother or father travelling with children this summer, who mislays their card and then is faced with a massive train fare just to get to their holiday destination with no railcard to validate return tickets. If they cannot pay, what then ?

Mmm - I never realised for one moment that they KEY point in your main post, or even follow ups, was the question of what happens to those who LOSE the Railcard - it certainly did not come over as such, if you will forgive me for so saying.

But in any event, I already know, without having to go back and look, that at least one other poster DID INDEED comment on this aspect.

And the suggestion was, once you know you have lost it, you report it lost. Then, under those such circumstances, perhaps with a Police FWIN Number, then the Train Guard may take a different view.

Or as a more realistic solution, the train company themselves, if notified in advance of this, might give you some dispensation to show to the Guard.

Or at the worst option, make you pay for a replacement Railcard, BUT, reimburse you the cost of it, IF you later find the original one.

Not ideal, for sure, if you DON'T then manage to find it.

But if you ask me do I find it unreasonable that those who have lost, might be asked to pay/leave the train/etc etc, if they cannot produce the requiste Railcard due to sudden loss, then my instant asnwer is "no, not at all. No more so than I have many times ejected people from a Football Ground for not being able to present to me a valid ticket, when called upon to do so. I do however direct them to the Ticket Office, for assistance however, so that support MIGHT be possible, IF they are genuine."

But in this example, even then, the fan must BUY a replacement ticket on the night, to be re-imbursed LATER if proved genuine.

And this example also relies on the fact that a Football Fan WILL have personal data recorded by the Club, that can be checked, and a Football Club DOES have a "back-room" Customer Support Service, which as I state elsewhere is NOT a feature of how a Railcard works, for clear cost reasons.

A better example would be a MATCH DAY only ticket holder, who has paid by cash, not card, and thus cannot prove he purchased a lost ticket.

And what happens then...? He is ejected, without refund, or recourse whatsoever, and this happens LOADS.

Exactly what else did you honestly EXPECT to happen, or have me say?

If the ticket is the ONLY means of proof (as is a Railcard), then no ticket, = no proof = no benefit or discount or seeing the rest of the match.

But before you think me unseeming, rest assured no. I TOO pity the harried parent during the summer, who loses the Railcard mid-journey.

But that's exactly ALL I DO - pity them.

I don't for one single second think they should have some dispensation not to show it. AND I therefore prey that parent is not ME, as I would expect no such consideration or dispensation myself... why on earth would I?

And it is not because I am cold, harsh, or uncharitable - on the contrary, I provide IT Support FREE to a Children's Hospice 26 miles away from me, which usually requires a full day of my time every time something goes wrong, but I see it as a great and worthwhile cause.

So... whilst you quote an example of the AA etc, I am going to once again, COMPLETELY IGNORE IT. Not out of rudeness or anything such like it, but simply because in making the analogy, you merely show us once again that you haven't quite grasped things in terms of a Railcard, and HOW it can be used...

Your AA Membership can indeed be verified as you through certain details perhaps, such as Date of Birth, etc, etc and a call to the "Customer Support Centre".

Fine and Dandy.

BUT, a Railcard, as I spent AGES pointing out above, is uniquely different. In that to avoid the wholesale opportunity for Fraudulent Use and Benefit, the ONLY way for it to work, is by "Production of the Card, which provides and accords you said benefit".

The same is NOT true for the AA as you compare it with.

As whilst you mention the AA having your details, true... but this is NOT how a Railcard works, where there is NOT a behind the scenes call-centre, who have ready access to your personal data, as supplied when purchasing the Railcard.

Were such a system to exist, forget ANY NOTION of a Railcard costing what it does currently, under the current system where NO third party, follow up support solution/contact centre is needed.

Introduce that, like the AA has, and don't even dream what a Railcard cost would rocket up to.

Ney mate - kiss bye-bye to any notion of seeking to compare a Railcard, to an AA Membership, or similar.

Instead, see it more like a Football Club MATCH DAY ONLY TICKET, bought with CASH, and it makes a bit more sense.

You wouldn't turn up to a game, without your ticket, and expect the Turnstile Operator to admit you, would you?

And by all means, fraudulently loan it to a friend (Premiership Season Tickets are NOT TRANSFERABLE, as per their rules of issue, even though EVERYONE actually does this), and then your friend can take wrongful advantage of it... BUT you can't ALSO take advantage of it at the same time, as HE will be the one in possession of the Card.

Start seeing the Railcard more like this, and you have a far better understanding of how it works...

It works like ANY such card - a gym membership card, a Discount Cinema Card, etc etc - it's only MEANT to be used by the owner. But if the owner DOES choose to wrongfully loan it to someone else, not only is that naughty naughty (in a real sense, not like me not yet having a Railcard, but still buying my advance travel tickets knowing I will by the time of travel), but it would also mean that whilst that other person used it, the actual owner could not ALSO be using it AT THE SAME TIME.

As clearly, and I do not know why you still aren't grasping this bit... For such services/cards/discounts/benefits, clearly, the ONLY WAY the scheme can work, is by the CARD ITSELF, being the entitlement to the benefit.

(And we've already well and truly covered the separate issue of why a Railcard needs to be carried at point of actual TRAVEL, not ticket purchase, in order to again further prevent Fraud - hint, you can't buy a discount MEAL in advance, like you can a train ticket...)

So again, my sympathy, and then some - and get this, my post was not even a "I told you so" kind of message.

It was far more fair, and proper than that - it was to point out to you some of the glaring errors or omissions you were still overlooking, as to WHY certain things have to be done the way they are, or apply the way they do etc.

Hope this helps mate, and certainly, if you feel it too much hassle to carry your Railcard with you, when you actually travel, then it is your absolute right then, to elect to not bother using Rail, and stick to the car instead.

gordikin

shadamehr...your post detail/length scares me...I'm very, very afraid now!

dfh

I had a young persons railcard and always carried it with me.When making a booking, all you are asked is if you have a railcard.Hence,I feel it is entirely reasonable that the card is asked to be produced during your journey.

shadamehr

gordikin wrote: »

shadamehr...your post detail/length scares me...I'm very, very afraid now!

My first post was VERY long before it...

...but it seems still not long enough to 'sufficiently explain it' for the benefit of the OP it seems.

*lol*

Firefox1975

Please just learn from your oversight and thankyou for reminding other members that they should also remember to carry their railcards.

shadamehr

In OTHER NEWS,

NXEC mailshot email arrived today.

It contains a code for 20% of a new Railcard.

The code is:

NXEC20

And it is valid until 31st August.

Can anyone suggest the best place to share this code in the forum?