Railcard woes - family asked to leave train

nobile

I use a Family Railcard regularly.

I keep it in my wallet.

Otherwise anyone could order tickets using the family discount - without ever needing to produce it

Seems harsh - but its fair.

Meepster

I love these posts:

"Through my own fault, I didn't do something I should have, and now it's ended up costing me more money. Why couldn't they make a special allowance, just for me, as I know I am a honest person. I feel like I've been so unfairly treated"

Next...

shadamehr

yenbat wrote: »

Thankyou for that excellent suggestion - it's good enough for the police who give you several days to produce your driving license I believe ! I could have produced proof at the desination station by accessing the railcard website with my password or even on my mobile.

It appears that it's ok to buy a discounted ticket without a railcard and that you are presumed guilty of fare evasion unless you can prove otherwise. What proof of identity is required when you produce the railcard other than waving it in front of the guard ? Could someone steal the card then use it - what safeguards are there ? It all seems back to front to me. I don't seem to have been sent any of the items listed such as red wallets or information leaflets - it was just a card.

I will stick to the car in future - it seems a lot simpler !

Yenbat, may I too add my sympathy for what you have gone through - unfortunate indeed, but I too have to add that the Train Guard ONLY did as he is required.

It is indeed true that there is variance in the 'discretion' of Guards perhaps, but don't blame them for this... The guard who exercises (unecessary, and technically illegal) discretion, might be a senior guard, of some ten years service, and most senior on the train. The Guard who does not, and simply does what his job states, may be a new guard, and travelling on a train that also has a Supervisory Staff Member above him on, for just one such example.

But the point I am making, is that hundreds, nay thousands of reasons, can explain a level of discrepancy in the service shown.

As in ALL things in life, the BOTTOM LINE is this though...

Any action taken that is correct as per procedure, is something you can NOT complain about. Any action ABOVE, BEYOND, or BETTER than what SHOULD be done, is something to be GRATEFUL for, but NEVER something to be later mentioned, as an indicator or barometer of what you should expect.


What you should expect, is the letter of the law. If anyone else receives better than that, then it is something to be GRATEFUL for, but NEVER something then try and use as leverage when others do NOT get this same response.

Otherwise, all that will happen, bet your bottom dollar, is that NO ONE will EVER get a favourable, and above standard, response in future.

So PLEASE don't tell me you want to kill off at least the the possibility of perhaps gaining a better response sometimes in life, solely in order to see a complete equity across the board.

I am all too sure I know what I and hundreds others would rather see, thank you very much.


As a second point, I would also repeat, as you have now accepted, that there is ZERO requirement to produce rail-card at point of PURCHASING tickets. It would be impractical, or even impossible to do so.

You suggest a PIN number, you could use online, or ordering over the phone etc.

You overlook a GLARING error though.

If this was the procedure, all I would need to do is tell you, my mum, my aunty, my uncle Fred, or indeed ANYONE I so cared to, what the PIN was, and THEY could then use it to order tickets much cheaper, happy in the knowledge that they could then use them for travel, as it would then not be necessary to carry the railcard for travel.

The same applies for your argument about being able to log in to the Railcard site using your unique details, to prove you were a Card holder.

I'm sorry, but how would that prevent fraud? If you did that, then AT THE SAME TIME as you were seeking to prove this to the awkward Guard you mention, another family member could have been using the actual card you had handed to them on a different journey too, thus fraudulently.

The bottom line here mate - the card, one single unique item, so that only one can exist, and only one person can use it at any time, is the ONLY way to prevent fraudulent use, and sharing of the benefits.

That is WHY it is not needed at point of purchase, but at point of TRAVEL mate. Any other way, and ANYONE could use it or share it.

But being required to CARRY it and show it at point of travel, is the ONLY way to prevent fraud, and ensure proper use.

Some of your ideas may indeed have proved YOU were indeed a card-holder. But NONE of your suggestions as to what the Guard may have done, or allowed you to demonstrate to him, would NOT however prove that you and ONLY you had the authorisation the card carries - but that another person could NOT have been using the real card AT THE SAME TIME, if you had given it to them.


There is a perfect reason why the Card says "Must be carried at all times and shown when requested"

And this is because this is the ONLY way to not only show you are entitled to the cheaper tickets, but also to do so in a manner that means NO-ONE ELSE can be benefiting from it at the same time.

Finally, not only would a system where you require unique details from the card at the point of purchase NOT prevent huge scope for fraud, as I explain above, I would also deplore this change for another reason.

At the moment, I can purchase discounted advance train tickets for my family and I for travel well ahead, as I have done right now, for late September.

I did so by simply stating I have a Railcard, as this is all that is required.

Even though my current Railcard has EXPIRED.

Fear not though, I am not attempting any Fraud here though.

I WILL be renewing/replacing/repurchasing a Family Railcard BEFORE I actually travel.

But this way, I do not need to waste over two months of use on the Card, by having to purchase it it NOW, when it is not needed for travel until late August.

That's the other flaw to your suggestion you see - if it was a system whereby the card needed to be valid for when tickets were actually PURCHASED, for highly advance tickets, the card itself could then be long since expired, come the date of actual travel.

So I would much rather be able to secure cheap discount tickets, by purchasing well in advance, and only renewing my Railcard in time for actual travel, than being forced to buy a Railcard NOW, and have it wasted for two months, with my first intended journey not being until late September.

To summarise though, there is a very good reason Railcards must be shown when travelling, and NOT when purchasing - because this is the ONLY way to not only prove entitlement, but to prevent SHARED use fraudulently.

Hope this helps.

Ste_C

Woah! :T

insert extra words to mae post length acceptable yadda yadda yadda blerb blah bleh

shadamehr

Ste_C wrote: »

Woah! :T

insert extra words to mae post length acceptable yadda yadda yadda blerb blah bleh

Indeed, I always believe in the ethos of "why use one word, when a thousand will do..."

But I thought I should cover all aspects of the op's oversight's etc.

*lol*

p00hsticks

yenbat wrote: »

My point is that if a discount card of any kind is purchased and an item is bought using that card, surely that purchase and the goods gained from that purchase are proof enough of the discount card's use. I cannot think of any other sphere of commerce where a product is purchased at a discount and then the discount voucher, card or code has to be produced for a second time to prove the purchase is valid. I had already purchased 4 tickets, 4 seat reservations but forgot the card, yet we were treated no differently to a family who had no intention of paying in the first place.

Most other purchases that I can think of aren't really similar though - here the purchase is really the train journey, not the tickets booking that journey.

Whilst I have some sympathy for you, if you travelled on the trains every day like I do, you'd realise the number of scams people try to pull, and so see why the ticket inspectors need to check the tickets thoroughly and ensure that the rules are being followed.

For example, in your case, if you didn't have to show the railcard on the train , then you could simply have had loads of families all sharing the same railcard to purchase their tickets and make the same journey.

yenbat

[ QUOTE __That is WHY it is not needed at point of purchase, but at point of TRAVEL mate. Any other way, and ANYONE could use it or share it.

But being required to CARRY it and show it at point of travel, is the ONLY way to prevent fraud, and ensure proper use.


At the moment, I can purchase discounted advance train tickets for my family and I for travel well ahead, as I have done right now, for late September.

I did so by simply stating I have a Railcard, as this is all that is required.

Even though my current Railcard has EXPIRED.

Fear not though, I am not attempting any Fraud here though.

I WILL be renewing/replacing/repurchasing a Family Railcard BEFORE I actually travel.

But this way, I do not need to waste over two months of use on the Card, by having to purchase it it NOW, when it is not needed for travel until late August.

That's the other flaw to your suggestion you see - if it was a system whereby the card needed to be valid for when tickets were actually PURCHASED, for highly advance tickets, the card itself could then be long since expired, come the date of actual travel.

So I would much rather be able to secure cheap discount tickets, by purchasing well in advance, and only renewing my Railcard in time for actual travel, than being forced to buy a Railcard NOW, and have it wasted for two months, with my first intended journey not being until late September.
QUOTE]


Thank you shadamehr for the time taken in contributing to this discussion - I was not intending to contribute any more but feel that your efforts deserve a response !

1. Please note the terms and conditons from the Family Railcard website :

Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train and when buying tickets you must show the Railcard.

Being in posession of a railcard is as much a condition of travel at the point of buying tickets as for the actual journey. I bought my railcard, bought my tickets as soon as it arrived then waited 2 months to travel - I assumed that is what you have to do to qualify for a discount. I notice that the date of purchase is printed on my tickets so it can be traced by linking the date on the railcard which any guard could do at the point of inspection. These tickets would not have been valid without purchasing the railcard first.

2. My second railcard, purchased after leaving the train, and new tickets were never inspected and the entire return journey was not subject to any inspection so where is the safeguard ?

3. I entirely accept that I should have carried this railcard on the day of travel - my point which is not being discussed is the risk of losing this card mid journey and the vulnerable position this puts the traveller in. This could happen to anyone. Should they then be treated the same as a fare avoider who has no tickets at all - at least if you lose your card you have tickets already purchased and should not risk prosecution just because your card was mislaid or stolen. The treatment is inflexible and completely disproportionate to the situation.

If I travel by car and I break down and call the AA, then cannot find my membership card when they arrive, are they going to leave me at the roadside ? They will consult their records by surname, date and address just as the train company could to validate that I have a card. They would not just charge me for the callout as a penalty for being forgetful.

I pity any harrassed mother or father travelling with children this summer, who mislays their card and then is faced with a massive train fare just to get to their holiday destination with no railcard to validate return tickets. If they cannot pay, what then ?

sooz

yenbat wrote: »

I pity any harrassed mother or father travelling with children this summer, who mislays their card and then is faced with a massive train fare just to get to their holiday destination with no railcard to validate return tickets. If they cannot pay, what then ?

Then don't mislay it.
It helps if you keep it with the tickets. If you were to be careless enough to mislay your tickets on a journey, the same thing would occur.
Perhaps a travel document wallet would help?

ShockingPink

yenbat wrote: »

3. I entirely accept that I should have carried this railcard on the day of travel - my point which is not being discussed is the risk of losing this card mid journey and the vulnerable position this puts the traveller in. This could happen to anyone. Should they then be treated the same as a fare avoider who has no tickets at all - at least if you lose your card you have tickets already purchased and should not risk prosecution just because your card was mislaid or stolen. The treatment is inflexible and completely disproportionate to the situation.

If I travel by car and I break down and call the AA, then cannot find my membership card when they arrive, are they going to leave me at the roadside ? They will consult their records by surname, date and address just as the train company could to validate that I have a card. They would not just charge me for the callout as a penalty for being forgetful.

I pity any harrassed mother or father travelling with children this summer, who mislays their card and then is faced with a massive train fare just to get to their holiday destination with no railcard to validate return tickets. If they cannot pay, what then ?

I have a railcard. However, about a year ago I was unfortunate enough to lose my ticket (I'd put it in the pocket of my jeans and it must have worked its way out). I had to pay the full cost of the single fare - my railcard was not usable because I had not purchased the ticket before my journey. Fortunately it wasn't a long journey so the loss wasn't as great as yours. Still annoying and upsetting, but quite fair. I had no proof that I'd already paid for my journey, just as you had no proof that the railcard was actually yours.

biscit

I've lost things in the past too. I've always accepted responsibility for my carelessness, though, to do otherwise would not be nice behaviour.