WARNING - Ryanair 'online check in' farce

Bengt

Now what was the thread title? "Ryanair, a company to love or hate" or was it "Ryanair, 'online check in' farce"?
Get back to the subject please...

peterbaker

Bengt, I know you are a fan of Ryanair for particular reasons, but did you realise that they were caught flouting the law and prosecuted for clearly and regularly discriminating against the disabled in the not so distant past? It wasn't a mistake, it was deliberate 'edgy' Ryanair policy against a minority group of passengers that cost them too much (in their view). Then having been found guilty and forced to comply with EU equality law, Ryanair decided to rub all our noses in their own poilitical point by showing a "Wheelchair Surcharge" on everybody's price breakdown. Maybe you never saw that? That rubbing-our-noses-in-it exercise only stopped a couple of years ago I believe.

The reason I personally have been prepared to comment on the general farce in a thread about a specific farce is because Ryanair are almost guaranteed to deliberately offend public sensibilities with some new publicity seeking initiative even in a good year.

Ryanair would rather spend a little money on shaking up their customers and getting themselves written about in an any-publicity-is-good-publicity fashion than to spend money via a more typical corporate advertising campaign. In Google hits that PBS has led us to in his last, O'Leary is reported as having admitted as much.

Anyway, as you have politely asked for some more refined 'on topic discussion', I can confirm that I was again at Stansted last weekend 21st August 2009 and that Check-in zone F (completely) and J (in part) were in use as Ryanair's general bag drop off desks. The flight information board directed customers to either F (no desk numbers specified) or J 144-149 I think, depending on flight number.

Having fallen foul of the new system myself a few weeks ago, I can only assume that if you are (sensibly) too early for your flight to show on the board, then you are gambling if you choose F or J and stick with it because when you arrive at the desk if you have been queuing in the wrong row they will have no sympathy whatsoever and tell you to go away to the other row, even though you had no way of knowing without leaving the queue to go and look to see if your flight had now been put on the board.

PS (for PBS) Are you saying that you actually know that Ryanair have a corporate policy of not tankering fuel and taking advantage of different fuel prices at the huge range of countries/airports they now fly to?? If you can confirm it then I shall gladly withdraw the suggestion that Ryanair may be discouraging passengers from carrying baggage in order to provide themseves more flexibility on the day in choosing whether or not to tanker cheap fuel in lieu of baggage. Certainly, taxed in the EU or not, O'Leary is sensitive to the cost of his fuel from particular airfields - witness the "Dites Non a la Surcharge Kerosone D'Air France" splurged as a slogan (painted) on the side of at least one of his aircraft :rolleyes:.

PPS (for PBS) Source of the information about six additional mobile batteries carried on each flight into the sky? Well I made my own estimate ... 2 pilots + 4 cabin crew, one mobile phone and one spare battery each ? . Unconvinced? :rolleyes:

PolishBigSpender

peterbaker wrote: »

Bengt, I know you are a fan of Ryanair for particular reasons, but did you realise that they were caught flouting the law and prosecuted for clearly and regularly discriminating against the disabled in the not so distant past? It wasn't a mistake, it was deliberate 'edgy' Ryanair policy against a minority group of passengers that cost them too much (in their view). Then having been found guilty and forced to comply with EU equality law, Ryanair decided to rub all our noses in their own poilitical point by showing a "Wheelchair Surcharge" on everybody's price breakdown. Maybe you never saw that? That rubbing-our-noses-in-it exercise only stopped a couple of years ago I believe.

Actually, the point was that Ryanair were forced to pay for wheelchairs in certain airports when the law (and common sense) suggested that it should be the airport's responsibility to provide wheelchairs, not the airline! Ryanair have always accepted that it's their responsibility to get the person on the plane safely from the point where the passenger is delivered to them (the gate) to the point where the passenger leaves them (again, the gate). I mean, in a ferry terminal or a train station, it's the operator of the terminal's responsibility, NOT the operator.

Quite why they ruled against Ryanair in this case is an enduring mystery to myself. But now, the EU has clarified that Ryanair et al aren't responsible - the airport is.

The reason I personally have been prepared to comment on the general farce in a thread about a specific farce is because Ryanair are almost guaranteed to deliberately offend public sensibilities with some new publicity seeking initiative even in a good year.

Personally, I'm more offended with the vast subsidies handed out to airlines such as BA with the building of T5 at Heathrow - which as everyone knows is almost exclusively for BA (and alliance partner) use.

As for their advertising - you just can't stop talking about them, can you?

Ryanair would rather spend a little money on shaking up their customers and getting themselves written about in an any-publicity-is-good-publicity fashion than to spend money via a more typical corporate advertising campaign. In Google hits that PBS has led us to in his last, O'Leary is reported as having admitted as much.

His last? Hmm.

O'Leary and Ryanair are fantastic at getting publicity for next to nothing. The media loves it, Ryanair loves it and everyone is happy - except those without a sense of humour.

Having fallen foul of the new system myself a few weeks ago, I can only assume that if you are (sensibly) too early for your flight to show on the board, then you are gambling if you choose F or J and stick with it because when you arrive at the desk if you have been queuing in the wrong row they will have no sympathy whatsoever and tell you to go away to the other row, even though you had no way of knowing without leaving the queue to go and look to see if your flight had now been put on the board.

Why would you start queuing in a queue that you didn't know what it was for? Most normal people will wait until the details are announced on the board - which is 2 hours in advance minimum and possibly more - Ryanair at Stansted often open the check-in for bags 3 hours in advance.

PS (for PBS) Are you saying that you actually know that Ryanair have a corporate policy of not tankering fuel and taking advantage of different fuel prices at the huge range of countries/airports they now fly to?? If you can confirm it then I shall gladly withdraw the suggestion that Ryanair may be discouraging passengers from carrying baggage in order to provide themseves more flexibility on the day in choosing whether or not to tanker cheap fuel in lieu of baggage. Certainly, taxed in the EU or not, O'Leary is sensitive to the cost of his fuel from particular airfields - witness the "Dites Non a la Surcharge Kerosone D'Air France" splurged as a slogan (painted) on the side of at least one of his aircraft :rolleyes:.

Generally speaking, it just isn't advantageous for airlines to do this - the weight of the fuel alone will have huge penalties in terms of fuel consumption. Ryanair aren't alone - as far as I know, barely any airlines will actually do such a thing, apart from possibly flights into areas where fuel supplies may be erratic. They may do it on very short hops (such as Blackpool/Liverpool-Dublin) - but they won't practice it as a general rule.

peterbaker

PolishBigSpender wrote: »

Actually, the point was that Ryanair were forced to pay for wheelchairs in certain airports when the law (and common sense) suggested that it should be the airport's responsibility to provide wheelchairs, not the airline!

Aviation is a team affair. Ryanair are not a team player. Ryanair are selfish, antisocial barstewards. Ryanair have NEVER accepted responsibility for getting the person on the plane safely from the point where the passenger is delivered to them (the gate) to the point where the passenger leaves them (again, the gate). I mean, have you ever watched their sub-contractor manhandling a disabled person out of a proper wheelchair into narrow frame not disimilar to one that would be used in a difficult potholing accident to negotiate narrow passages and then seen the subbies, backs half-broken, clambering up the Boeing integral 45 degree 80cm wide (or is it less?) front steps at that almost impossible angle with the 'patient' clinging for dear life somewhere in the middle? Very safe, for all concerned, very caring. NOT.

Quite why they ruled against Ryanair in this case is an enduring mystery to myself.

We are not surprised PBS, you have many times shown us your dislike for laws which restrict your preferred ways.

But now, the EU has clarified that Ryanair et al aren't responsible - the airport is.

Oh really? Do show us where you obtained the basis for that spoiling remark?

Why would you start queuing in a queue that you didn't know what it was for?

I wouldn't. So having read all I could from every source about what to expect I arrived in good time (almost 3 hours before my flight as generally advised by all experienced Stansted thinkers on this forum at least!) and immediately saw (a) that my flight number was on the board (b) that like many other flight numbers, it had no particular information next to it (c) that there was general mayhem in the whole general area between J&F which kind of confirmed what I had heard and which cajoled me into instant queue now or be left behind mode and (d) that a I was surrounded by a bunch (2 rows) of desks which all said "Ryanair Bag Drop Desk" or similar and so I picked a likely spot very much like one does at MacDonalds when one is looking to get served the quickest, and I queued. Do you wish to continue to assert that I somehow queued abnormally?

Most normal people will wait until the details are announced on the board - which is 2 hours in advance minimum and possibly more -

You have a blind faith in that assertion, PBS? You are not being helpful by making it unless you have several times witnessed it this summer.

Ryanair at Stansted often open the check-in for bags 3 hours in advance.

Ryanair at Stansted have no check-in for bags and furthermore there is no way at 3 hours before the flight that the board tell you whether you want F or J. The new concept which we are generally agreed has been farcical this summer is based upon a group of non-flight specific bag drop desks i.e. linked to no particular flight number so with all due respect, I suggest you are again talking out of the back of your hat, PBS about when they are open in relation to your flight. Unlike old fashioned flight specific check-in desks, however, we can however assert very strongly the time that all and any bag drop desks will be closed for your flight. That is strictly 40 minutes before your flight time. Hand over your boarding card at the desk 39 minutes or less and you will be turned away irrespective of whose fault the queue delays may be.

Generally speaking, it just isn't advantageous for airlines to do this - the weight of the fuel alone will have huge penalties in terms of fuel consumption.

And your possibly rash generalisation comes from??

You are making me laugh again, PBS, very much like O'Leary usually does when I see him on the telly. You aren't him are you? :rotfl:

Bengt

peterbaker wrote: »

Bengt, I know you are a fan of Ryanair for particular reasons, but did you realise that they were caught flouting the law and prosecuted for clearly and regularly discriminating against the disabled in the not so distant past? It wasn't a mistake, it was deliberate 'edgy' Ryanair policy against a minority group of passengers that cost them too much (in their view). Then having been found guilty and forced to comply with EU equality law, Ryanair decided to rub all our noses in their own poilitical point by showing a "Wheelchair Surcharge" on everybody's price breakdown. Maybe you never saw that? That rubbing-our-noses-in-it exercise only stopped a couple of years ago I believe.

Yes I do know about it and followed the case in the press. Ryanair lost, but really it was BAA that should have provided the wheelchair without cost.
Also I have said this in several fora, in my experience Ryanair now really is one of the better airlines to fly with when you travel with wheelchair. You can book assistance on-line (not any other airline I know of), you get reserved seats normally at row 2 and you are treated quite well.
And I speak from personal experience as I have travelled many times with my daughter both with Ryanair and other airlines.

peterbaker wrote: »

Aviation is a team affair. Ryanair are not a team player. Ryanair are selfish, antisocial barstewards. Ryanair have NEVER accepted responsibility for getting the person on the plane safely from the point where the passenger is delivered to them (the gate) to the point where the passenger leaves them (again, the gate). I mean, have you ever watched their sub-contractor manhandling a disabled person out of a proper wheelchair into narrow frame not disimilar to one that would be used in a difficult potholing accident to negotiate narrow passages and then seen the subbies, backs half-broken, clambering up the Boeing integral 45 degree 80cm wide (or is it less?) front steps at that almost impossible angle with the 'patient' clinging for dear life somewhere in the middle? Very safe, for all concerned, very caring. NOT.

This is really depending on the airports equipment, not on Ryanair. On most airports the people travelling with wheelchairs are lifted using trucks with lifts (like catering are loaded on the airplane). In some airports you are carried by two persons. But at Stansted, Beauvais, Girona and Skavsta trucks have been used. Lübeck and Berlin used carriers.

PolishBigSpender

Oh boy...

peterbaker wrote: »

Aviation is a team affair. Ryanair are not a team player. Ryanair are selfish, antisocial barstewards. Ryanair have NEVER accepted responsibility for getting the person on the plane safely from the point where the passenger is delivered to them (the gate) to the point where the passenger leaves them (again, the gate).

Absolute nonsense. Ryanair may try and cut corners at every step of the way - but they treat disabled people properly. If they didn't, why would they have a rule only allowing 4 disabled passengers on their planes? Ryanair have publicly stated time and time again that the reasoning behind this ruling is to make sure that they're looked after properly. Compare this to the treatment handed out on package holidays by Thomas Cook et al.

[qupte]I mean, have you ever watched their sub-contractor manhandling a disabled person out of a proper wheelchair into narrow frame not disimilar to one that would be used in a difficult potholing accident to negotiate narrow passages and then seen the subbies, backs half-broken, clambering up the Boeing integral 45 degree 80cm wide (or is it less?) front steps at that almost impossible angle with the 'patient' clinging for dear life somewhere in the middle? Very safe, for all concerned, very caring. NOT.[/quote]

Have you got any better suggestions on how disability access can be improved for planes? I'm sure virtually every airport in the world would love to know how they can improve access.

We are not surprised PBS, you have many times shown us your dislike for laws which restrict your preferred ways.Oh really? Do show us where you obtained the basis for that spoiling remark?

EC Regulation 1107/2006. Came into effect in July 2008.

You are making me laugh again, PBS, very much like O'Leary usually does when I see him on the telly. You aren't him are you? :rotfl:

I'd say that the only person laughing is O'Leary, given that you have apparently used their service multiple times this summer

peterbaker

I am pleased to hear that your experiences with Ryanair are generally good, Bengt. So they should be. Ryanair carry more than any other airline in Europe.

My point is that it wasn't always so, and I am not talking ten years ago, just one or two.

As you say, Ryanair do reserve Row 2 for disabled passengers but unlike you, I have not yet seen a lift used to the front right door. On the half dozen or so occasions I have witnessed, it has been some form of struggle up and down the front narrow steps. And it never fits in with Ryanair's 25 minute turnarounds, causing those 'rather less than comprehensively trained' cabin crew (and no doubt ground crew too) to potentially become flustered in trying to complete other essential tasks before departure. On the one occasion I have departed from Skavsta for example, there was indeed a disabled passenger embarked and assisted to Row 2. I was sitting in 1A. The senior cabin crew became distracted and due to the very short taxi from the stand to the runway in use that day, I was unaware of any safety briefing having taken place and worse, he forgot to engage the emergency slide at my feet. I had to remind him as he had started to strap himself in without doing it. I will admit it was four or five years ago.

This is really depending on the airports equipment, not on Ryanair.

This is not really true. All Ryanair's bases and destinations have wide airstairs that could be used at both the front and back of Ryanair's aircraft. It is Ryanair who have a policy whereby they choose to save the cost of the front stairs service by using the often indadequate narrow built-in stair on the aircraft. I have winced when watching elderly passengers with sticks descend those stairs unaided. Strictly speaking, Ryanair would need two more ground staff on arrival to set the extra set of proper stairs. They generally choose not to go to that expense. I will also suggest that more often than not, the one set of airstairs (if provided) at the back will have been rushed into position by a single ground crew who, if the stairs are not self-propelled will, under exploitative labour market pressures, have risked personal injury by moving the stairs single-handedly against all health and safety recommendations, and furthermore may have been tempted to position the stairs in a less than properly stable manner causing them to rock when we use them, and to leave ugly gaps that could be traps to the unwary.

But back to disabled passenger services - obviously the specialist wheelchair handling contractor at all the larger airports (few would have trained airport operator staff on their own payroll) is appointed/contracted by arrangements agreed between the airport operator and their major airline customer.

On most airports the people travelling with wheelchairs are lifted using trucks with lifts (like catering are loaded on the airplane).

I accept your obvious knowledge of this, and it is surely what all reasonable people would expect because it is the lowest risk way of providing the service using non-'specialist' wheelchair assistance personnel. The only specialist required is the lift operator. All airports with regular medium sized and up airliner traffic will have suitable lifting and access equipment but no doubt they have their price for using it which they will no doubt factor in to the charging structure for their major airline customer. Or will they? We are back to the whole question of how the major airline sticks its fingers in all the airports pies and exerts pressure to provide airport services in less than reasonable ways. With disabled passenger services, there should be one high standard. The question when you see it done the other way ('on the cheap') is 'Who has caused this, and Why?'

richardw

or perhaps

peterbaker wrote: »

With ...... passenger services, there should be one high standard.

PolishBigSpender

peterbaker wrote: »

As you say, Ryanair do reserve Row 2 for disabled passengers but unlike you, I have not yet seen a lift used to the front right door. On the half dozen or so occasions I have witnessed, it has been some form of struggle up and down the front narrow steps. And it never fits in with Ryanair's 25 minute turnarounds, causing those 'rather less than comprehensively trained' cabin crew (and no doubt ground crew too) to potentially become flustered in trying to complete other essential tasks before departure.

You ought to be careful here - making allegations about Ryanair's cabin crew training on a public forum is not the wisest thing you could possibly do.

Ryanair actually outsource their cabin crew training (as do many carriers) - and this training has to meet a certain standard. These things are inspected regularly by the JAA - and Ryanair simply cannot cut corners on issues such as staff training or maintainence. If they even tried to do so, then you'd find Ryanair denied an operating licence within weeks.

On the one occasion I have departed from Skavsta for example, there was indeed a disabled passenger embarked and assisted to Row 2. I was sitting in 1A. The senior cabin crew became distracted and due to the very short taxi from the stand to the runway in use that day, I was unaware of any safety briefing having taken place and worse, he forgot to engage the emergency slide at my feet. I had to remind him as he had started to strap himself in without doing it. I will admit it was four or five years ago.

When the door is closed, the door becomes 'auto-armed' - there's no need for him to engage anything. There may be a need for a visual check, but that's not the same as engaging the slide.

As for the safety briefing - now you're on very dangerous territory with such allegations. I've flown with Ryanair countless times and have *never* seen a skipped safety demonstration.

This is not really true. All Ryanair's bases and destinations have wide airstairs that could be used at both the front and back of Ryanair's aircraft. It is Ryanair who have a policy whereby they choose to save the cost of the front stairs service by using the often indadequate narrow built-in stair on the aircraft.

Stairs aren't built into the Boeing 737's that Ryanair use - the stairs provided are from the airport. If you don't believe that disabled passengers should have to negotiate stairs - why don't you complain to airports about the high cost of jetbridges?

I have winced when watching elderly passengers with sticks descend those stairs unaided. Strictly speaking, Ryanair would need two more ground staff on arrival to set the extra set of proper stairs.

Why should they be aided if they aren't disabled? It's not Ryanair's problem - if they have a disability, then they should book accordingly and receive assistance.

As for 'proper' stairs - again, there's no such thing. For someone who claims to use Ryanair so much, you appear to have minimal knowledge of aviation. The stairs which airports use are pretty much standardised.

They generally choose not to go to that expense. I will also suggest that more often than not, the one set of airstairs (if provided) at the back will have been rushed into position by a single ground crew who, if the stairs are not self-propelled will, under exploitative labour market pressures, have risked personal injury by moving the stairs single-handedly against all health and safety recommendations, and furthermore may have been tempted to position the stairs in a less than properly stable manner causing them to rock when we use them, and to leave ugly gaps that could be traps to the unwary.

Again, you should be very careful making such allegations on a public forum.

And again, your knowledge of aviation is minimal - in fact, I'm not convinced that you've actually flown Ryanair at all based on your comments recently. If you had flown with them, you'd know that the stairs are pushed into place using a vehicle designed for the purpose - and that the doors cannot be opened until the stairs are secured.

But back to disabled passenger services - obviously the specialist wheelchair handling contractor at all the larger airports (few would have trained airport operator staff on their own payroll) is appointed/contracted by arrangements agreed between the airport operator and their major airline customer.

I'll remind you that under the relevant EU regulation, the airport is wholly responsible for the disabled passenger from door to door. The airlines now have nothing to do with the transportation of the disabled passenger through the terminal.

How BAA, MAG and others in the UK choose to treat disabled passengers is entirely up to them.

With disabled passenger services, there should be one high standard. The question when you see it done the other way ('on the cheap') is 'Who has caused this, and Why?'

Aviation has never been suitable for passengers with disabilities. Other forms of transport are much more suitable - and while I agree that disabled people should be accomodated, it is quite honestly impractical to expect the aviation sector to be fully accessible for disabled passengers. The current arrangements work.

peterbaker

Oh dear PBS, have we touched a nerve? Let me respond to your warnings of danger ... :eek: ... oooh!

Do you think that just because I habitually sit in a 737-800 in any seat numbered 1A backwards of the pointy end, that I do not understand quite a lot of what is going on? I also know exactly what is involved with the provision and positioning of airstairs by a ground handling contractor (or not) and a reasonable man's opinion about what is 'proper' and what might be merely 'expedient' or 'minimally compliant'.

Anyway, the escape slide on the left front door ... as far as I know, the slide connection has not been changed since I last sat in 1A, or maybe it has? It matters not. The Skavsta incident certainly was exactly as I described. It required a approx 70cm long rod attached to the aircraft end of the plastic slide to be attached to the two floor anchor points immediately in front of me by manual engagement. Until I spoke up, it wasn't. When I pointed out the slip, the answer was something like "Oh sh*t".

Just to humour us, do please tell us how the safety slide on the door in front of 1A was connected to the flloor of the aircraft when the door was opened in an emergency four or five years ago on Ryanair's 737-800s? And how is it different now? I have noticed that the slide covers do seem to be properly attached thesedays instead of sometimes appearing like they might be hanging off. Maybe an improved slide system is now in use? Whatever, my point was about the danger that mandatory tasks may get overlooked if offering disabled passenger services is viewed by cabin crew as impinging upon 'normal' operations.

So remind us how the sllide thing works ... does the senior cabin crew wait until the emergency occurs before he goes down on one knee and connects it to the floor before opening the door?

No he/she doesn't. Unless things have changed, he/she is trained to connect it immediately after he/she closes the door and just before he/she puts the diagonal orange ribbon across the door port window to signal the door is armed. How often do we see them with a mike in one hand and clipping the orange ribbon across and only then doing what they need to do to the bottom of the door?

And do you know how close the terminal is to the nearest runway threshold at Skavsta - it really is the shortest apron to departure point I have witnessed - if it is not done before taxi commences then there is a danger that the safety briefing just cannot be done before the captain says "cabin crew seats for departure" as he will unless he is told he can't yet.

In a few hundred flights I have never found myself unaware of the safety briefing having taken place, except that day.

And as for suggesting that the cabin crew training might be less than comprehensive, how exactly are cabin crew trained to achieve a 25 minute turnaround when it includes the provision of disabled passenger services? Even if something is 'trained', it cannot be said to be comprehensively trained until the proof is seen in the pudding. Have we already forgotten the passenger reports of cabin crew performance from the Limoges runway overrun incident and my own report of the deliberate neglect of the rear toilets recently?

And maintenance? Did I say anything about maintenance?? Since you mention it, I was rather hoping that was one thing that Ryanair would do well, bearing in mind they have 200+ aircraft all of identical type. Maybe you meant toilets again - amazing the variation of upsets you might encounter in one of those :rolleyes:, and if you aren't trained ... well, just think how daunting it must be ...

Actually, I have now read the second part of your ILL-INFORMED tosh PBS. What on earth do you mean that Ryanair's 737s do not have built in front stairs? Before Ryanair close their front door completely, what do you think the No. 1 is usually doing when he/she has half closed the door and is peering through the gap at something whilst pressing a button on the panel accompanied by a mechanical whirring noise from under his/her feet? Are you sure you haven't been flying LOT Polish all along?

The suggestion that the airport is solely responsible for providing full access faclities for the disabled is contemptible rot. The regulations are 9 pages long yet you summarise them in one totally biased sentence. The regulations place duties squarely upon ALL the parties involved in providing an EU aviation passenger transport service, especially the carrier that sells the flight, and the regulations even consider the case where particular carriers by their size and MO may have significant influence on the whole passenger experience. The airport are empowered to take the lead on these matters, and to charge the airline for a proper service, but with Ryanair's take on matters cost-wise, can you imagine why a less than ideal service may not always be in evidence? I can. Fingers in pies again? :rolleyes:

Aviation has never been suitable for passengers with disabilities. Other forms of transport are much more suitable - and while I agree that disabled people should be accomodated, it is quite honestly impractical to expect the aviation sector to be fully accessible for disabled passengers. The current arrangements work.

That last paragraph of your most recent post is preposterous. The law was drafted in the name of social inclusion. Your post is drafted in the name of something quite different which I suggest no one on MSE wants to hear again, thanks.